We need more HARROWING HELL

[Valence]

I could write an essay on this, but the title says it all already: this finale mechanic in P10S felt such a breath of fresh air after spending our time playing DDR and solving mechanics (especially finicky crap like Bonds 3). It felt great for the simple reason that it was not just solving mechanics, it was actually about surviving, using our kits to get through something that truly felt threatening.

We need more of this, not less.

Even the storymode version was crazy good to have in that mode, especially at release. It's actually cool on normal modes as well for the very reason that it's challenging at release, but eventually gets more manageable for people trying to catch up at later points in the game story.

[Jeeqbit]

It's not really that new of a concept. Many past savage raids have ended with lots and lots of raid-wide aoes that keep the healers on their toes.

I don't normally heal savage, but I healed E2S and they were in that fight and you also had to do a lot of dodging and memorization whilst also healing so the party lived. If you didn't do the dodging and memorization as a healer, RIP, you didn't just die you also potentially wiped the party right before the kill. It also applied damage downs to make it harder to beat the enrage. Don't get me wrong, that was an easy fight overall, but PF would give you the complete opposite impression.

[LuciaMirain]

as a healer that has healed 4 ultimates I second this. I loved how high the stakes were, that you needed to plan your heals just for the party to survive. Alot of fights are very mitigation based where there is just on big bad hit coming out and you kitchensink it and then nothing else happens and you can just wait for the hp to slowly go up. Before harrowing hell we had Almagest as well. Which was alot of fun.

[Sqwall]

as a healer that has healed 4 ultimates I second this. I loved how high the stakes were, that you needed to plan your heals just for the party to survive. Alot of fights are very mitigation based where there is just on big bad hit coming out and you kitchensink it and then nothing else happens and you can just wait for the hp to slowly go up. Before harrowing hell we had Almagest as well. Which was alot of fun.

It was just as hard for tanks as well. I know I had to have all of my mitigation available for harrowing, and both tanks needed to be in sync to not overlap reprisal. P10s imo...SHOULD be the standard difficulty for savage going forward. P10s made me THINK about mitigation, and make myself plan much more around mechanics. Understanding when to use nascent flash, holding mitigation for real damage. Not using bloodwhetting on cooldown, but actually using it for those moments when I needed.

Harrowing Hell was just the best part as BOTH tanks NEEDED all of their mitigation to keep the damage down, and the healers needed to blast their oGCD's and use their big heals for it. I'm so glad we beat p10s without using tank LB. Such a good fight.

I have also been an advocate that healers....NEED TO HEAL....complain about mashing a single button all you want. If you had to actually heal under real threat of members dying at all times....that would be MUCH more compelling then mashing a single button. I have always said bosses need to do MORE damage, mechanics need to bring us so close to death. I'm not a fan of one shots as it's just a clear indicator of what you can and can't do, but damage should be what you can get away with instead. If I had a nickel for every time I was near death in p12s due to our healers just spamming broil/fall malefic....I would prolly make $20 a raid night. Then I'm screamed at when I use clemency....I have died so many times to just auto attacks because my healers are greedy and want high DPS. I want to counter that by keeping them from mashing the single DPS button and force them to heal me. Increase auto attack damage, increase tank buster damage, increase bleed damage, make the tanks feel the pain. And force the healers to heal EVEN MORE.

Harrowing Hell is a clear example that it can be done, but as long as the community is obsessed with DPS numbers and the color of the number they do....healers will always ask for more meaningful dps rotation.

[Valence]

It's not really that new of a concept. Many past savage raids have ended with lots and lots of raid-wide aoes that keep the healers on their toes.

I don't normally heal savage, but I healed E2S and they were in that fight and you also had to do a lot of dodging and memorization whilst also healing so the party lived. If you didn't do the dodging and memorization as a healer, RIP, you didn't just die you also potentially wiped the party right before the kill. It also applied damage downs to make it harder to beat the enrage. Don't get me wrong, that was an easy fight overall, but PF would give you the complete opposite impression.

Nobody said it was a new concept. I'm saying it's a forgotten concept.

And it's not just on healers, that's what I like about it. It's a team effort.

E2S was a serious wall for PF, and still a sharp step up after E1S. It's not that dissimilar to P10S, even if on lesser scales.

I want to see something like this in the fight with an expansion boss. Make the damn things threatening, even on Normal. Not insurmountable, but at least a little challenging. If any Normal mode fight has a right to wipe the party once or twice, it's them.

They did it once or twice, notably with Nidhogg (3.3), and with Shinryu (4.0). People cried tears of blood on social media because the fight was too punishing. I disagreed with them, they all cleared, they had to work a little for it, that's all. I remember a lot of parties voting abandon, sure, but it's not like it walled players out of the clear for more than a hour.

It was just as hard for tanks as well. I know I had to have all of my mitigation available for harrowing, and both tanks needed to be in sync to not overlap reprisal. P10s imo...SHOULD be the standard difficulty for savage going forward. P10s made me THINK about mitigation, and make myself plan much more around mechanics. Understanding when to use nascent flash, holding mitigation for real damage. Not using bloodwhetting on cooldown, but actually using it for those moments when I needed.

Harrowing Hell was just the best part as BOTH tanks NEEDED all of their mitigation to keep the damage down, and the healers needed to blast their oGCD's and use their big heals for it. I'm so glad we beat p10s without using tank LB. Such a good fight.

I have also been an advocate that healers....NEED TO HEAL....complain about mashing a single button all you want. If you had to actually heal under real threat of members dying at all times....that would be MUCH more compelling then mashing a single button. I have always said bosses need to do MORE damage, mechanics need to bring us so close to death. I'm not a fan of one shots as it's just a clear indicator of what you can and can't do, but damage should be what you can get away with instead. If I had a nickel for every time I was near death in p12s due to our healers just spamming broil/fall malefic....I would prolly make $20 a raid night. Then I'm screamed at when I use clemency....I have died so many times to just auto attacks because my healers are greedy and want high DPS. I want to counter that by keeping them from mashing the single DPS button and force them to heal me. Increase auto attack damage, increase tank buster damage, increase bleed damage, make the tanks feel the pain. And force the healers to heal EVEN MORE.

Harrowing Hell is a clear example that it can be done, but as long as the community is obsessed with DPS numbers and the color of the number they do....healers will always ask for more meaningful dps rotation.

I'm not gonna lie, I don't like P10S much, especially with all the body checks and finicky mechanics (like Bonds 3), which is very indicative of all the designs that greatly tend to get on my nerves with ShB and EW. But Harrowing Hell is the opposite, because it brings back what used to be more of a thing before. On top of it it provides different options to clear it, like using tank LB for it. On its own, it's okay I guess, but imagine if you had multiple mechanics that aren't just based on DDR but on actual party resource management, and you had to CHOOSE where to use your valuable LBs and cheeses? A bit like you CHOOSE when to use tank invulns for busters?

I'm just asking for more of this. More player agency please.

[Sqwall]

I'm not gonna lie, I don't like P10S much, especially with all the body checks and finicky mechanics (like Bonds 3), which is very indicative of all the designs that greatly tend to get on my nerves with ShB and EW. But Harrowing Hell is the opposite, because it brings back what used to be more of a thing before. On top of it it provides different options to clear it, like using tank LB for it. On its own, it's okay I guess, but imagine if you had multiple mechanics that aren't just based on DDR but on actual party resource management, and you had to CHOOSE where to use your valuable LBs and cheeses? A bit like you CHOOSE when to use tank invulns for busters?

I'm just asking for more of this. More player agency please.

I sacrificed warrior holmgang for hallowed and just that single change upended our mitigation timing and healer oGCD timing to a degree I didn't think it would be that big of a deal. But the fact that I basically only get Hallowed MAYBE twice (usually 1) per pull vs. 3 Holmgangs is a HUGE difference.

The offset for going PLD over WAR is PLD's ridiculous passive healing, and more mitigation vs warrior. The healers in my static noticed nearly immediately that I can mitigate more damage throughout a fight and sustain my HP better then WAR. Bloodwhetting is very good...but blasting it whenever isn't smart mitigation usage. I have to spread it out evenly, compared to PLD where I have bulwark, wings, sentinel, Holy Sheltron, rampart, and veil that I can spread out evenly. Warrior I had to be much more careful about when to use mitigation, and it payed off to crazy degrees of healing/self sustain.

PLD is just much more the sustain tank then it ever was....complete your rotation and you just passively heal yourself. Burst passively heal. Want to take the edge off auto attacks....drop Holy Sheltron and get some healing with mitigation. Want to help out the healers? Drop Holy Sheltron during burst. Wanna save oath....use bulwark. Wanna cover the gap between a raid wide for healers, Pop Veil...while your taking autos....Holy Sheltron + Bulwark or Rampart and they can focus on AoE healing without worrying about your autos.

Tanking now for me is so much more compelling then it ever was....knowing the mitigation timing of a fight is part of the puzzle tanks need to talk about.

Having said all that I am REALLY excited to see what they have in store for the tanks in DT. The tanks are in such a perfect and most balanced spot they have ever been in. I hope they don't do anything to upset that balance.

[Reimmi]

I wanna see it more in normal too. healing non savage/extreme content is so god damn boring

[PercibelTheren]

I want to see something like this in the fight with an expansion boss. Make the damn things threatening, even on Normal. Not insurmountable, but at least a little challenging. If any Normal mode fight has a right to wipe the party once or twice, it's them.

[Reinha]

Every dungeon and normal mode trial and normal mode raid should kill the party if the healer is not alive or is not healing at all. That should be the base expectation.

[GoatOfWar]

All the ridiculous sustain just needs to be reeled back. Warrior and Paladin can't be replacing healers.
Dealing with HH as a Dark knight vs dealing with HH as Warrior while also doing less damage than Warrior also puts into perspective how hard they went on the powercreep.
Half of Dark knight's toolkit does not interact with HH.