Discuss : is ffxiv in trouble

[Gemina]

The issue has to do with how they look at data. They don't even register problems like how the time limited unreal content is dead and impossible to learn / do if someone doesn't do it in the first two weeks of release. Someone trying to do it now will be sitting forever in PF without a hope in the world of doing it. That and gear level itself has been isolated way too much to savage. I'm convinced the devs are literally scared to death of giving anyone access or progress to max iLvL patch gear through anything less than a savage because they think it will kill the content. If anything it would cut down the people doing savage to the ones that honestly want to do it. I'd rather do mid tier content and avoid the stress myself but they offer no alternatives.

I don't follow. I've never had any trouble getting into any unreal fight well into the patch its released in. I normally don't even attempt them until around the halfway mark, and Thordan has been no different this patch. I'm not saying you're wrong, only that my experience has been much different.

As for savage, you make it sound like there is no rhyme or reason for this decision making process. I'm completely the opposite, and my lack of understanding comes from why they even allow players access to BiS who don't run savage. I know Yoshi has explicitly stated that he creates a skill path and time path towards achieving BiS, but it is something I don't agree with at all. Especially considering that BiS isn't required by any duties, along with the allowance of such a high ilv eliminating the presence of mechanics inside of normal duties. BiS should be something that gives a little bit of leeway for duties with a silenced echo. Like that is literally all it should do. But perhaps that's just me.

[Colt47]

I don't follow. I've never had any trouble getting into any unreal fight well into the patch its released in. I normally don't even attempt them until around the halfway mark, and Thordan has been no different this patch. I'm not saying you're wrong, only that my experience has been much different.

As for savage, you make it sound like there is no rhyme or reason for this decision making process. I'm completely the opposite, and my lack of understanding comes from why they even allow players access to BiS who don't run savage. I know Yoshi has explicitly stated that he creates a skill path and time path towards achieving BiS, but it is something I don't agree with at all. Especially considering that BiS isn't required by any duties, along with the allowance of such a high ilv eliminating the presence of mechanics inside of normal duties. BiS should be something that gives a little bit of leeway for duties with a silenced echo. Like that is literally all it should do. But perhaps that's just me.

Of course it isn't required for duties and that isn't the point of it. The point of it is to get a feeling of being superior or better from completing a supposedly harder piece of content, even though the majority of the "skill" is directly linked to doing a very specific dance. People think the world is ruled by logic on mass scale but it is really emotion and feeling that runs rampant, and despite the logic that there is no need for it, once someone engages in it on that treadmill, regardless of how it gets built, it is very hard to ever get off of it. The only way to kill the entire thing is to literally allow everyone to get to max iLvL in some way or form and break the illusion. But then it would supposedly hurt the game to do that because if someone is on a treadmill they are going to keep going... well that is what most companies think, anyway.

[Gordita]

I’ve never understood the argument of “the forums are a negative echo chamber so you should just assume that everyone who isn’t on here is mostly happy” for 2 reasons

1) this is where we are told to come to make a complaint if we aren’t happy with something in the game, complaints are why this forum exists

2) if square has such hard and fast data on the fact that these complaints don’t represent the general playerbase why do they never engage with us on here, you could shut the entire healer subforum up in 5 seconds if a GM posted “according to squares internal data healer gameplay and engagement are where we desire them to be at and as such we do not see a reason to redesign the healers again”. Instead they remain completely silent while we argue over the tiny bit of data we can pull from the game ourselves

The fact that the devs tell us to come to the forums then just ignore us while we argue amongst ourselves is exactly why the forums are the way they are

If a dev posted in the English forums people would bombard the hell outta them, though. Political debate culture in the English forums over matters of opinion , left and right vibes, yeah... Nope. I couldn't see myself saying anything in here if I were a dev. However, I completely agree that the lack of acknowledgement from Square Enix on the English forums is very off-putting

[Gordita]

I should add on, why should the silent majority matter when they don't speak their mind? Honestly, look at this through a looking glass...if the silent majority absolutely hate/love something they would come out and say it on here, that's what the forums are for, discussion. The reason they don't I think, is because the consensus aligns with their point of view or the formula hasn't changed enough for them to warrant feedback (this can be negative or positive (I see it as mostly negative)). People like to say we don't represent the majority but the truth is more likely we do, at least some of them. [People who refute that premise are obviously being bad actors.]

Though, honestly we should really stop pandering to a silent majority...that accomplishes nothing..Because by the end of the day you can use that argument for anything to turn down any premise when you absolutely don't know what the major popular opinion is, it's data we can't collect. Even if we could, would it evaluate to anything meaningful(?) Mixed thoughts tend to become a blob of information if not generalized.

There's a large amount of silent people because of how people behave on the forums. It's usually people arguing, or being so loud and excited over materialistic things that any post related to qol or fine tuning a long list of super annoying parts of the game... It's just ignored, ridiculed, and buried under a massive pile of "noise".

[Katish]

There's a large amount of silent people because of how people behave on the forums. It's usually people arguing, or being so loud and excited over materialistic things that any post related to qol or fine tuning a long list of super annoying parts of the game... It's just ignored, ridiculed, and buried under a massive pile of "noise".

But even then it's easy to determine what that "noise" is...that still doesn't undermine what the point of the argument was. It's worse to do nothing than to do something. That was my argument, pandering to a silent majority accomplishes nothing thus we get nothing accomplished. "Because apparently the place were our opinions matter is for naught." Why even have a forum if our opinions warrant zero value?

As I have brought up in the past HSR is listening to feedback because they provide surveying as means to receive it, and that generates a positive outlook for the game. Since we don't even have that, the forums is the next best place for giving said feedback to the devs. But if someone rejects notions and keeps pandering to the silent majority then obviously they are going to overlook any sort of feedback present. (Because the ones who think they are being positive are actually hindering progress because companies would rather do nothing and profit than be held responsible)

Do note, I do not blame Yoshida, the fault lies solely with Square as an enterprise. Companies want the least amount of effort for the most amount of money. And despite what people think, they do value public opinion of them because that is what keeps new players flowing (or at least I would hope so or else truly nothing would get done).

[strawberrycake]

So we live in 2024, and what I hate the most of people within the XIV community is that they simultaneously praise CBU3 and SE for everything that they do, while also acting as if sorting through a forum they created for information is the hardest thing to do, or gauging the player base for information about what they're currently doing/playing,what they'd like to see is the hardest thing to do. You can't act like they're a better set of devs if they can't figure those basic things out, like any other dev.

XIV isn't dying, thats a massive leap in logic and I feel that leap came from the fact that anytime a person has simply expressed distaste of the current set of content, it's met with people leaping to the idea that said person thought the game was dying because of it. And yes there have been a few of those people, but they are not the majority. But, BUT, the massive lack of direct attention from CBU3 is what exacerbates the already apparent issues with the game. Factoring in Yoshida wanted all of this to be this way for people to play FF16 (he said so in an interview) as the massively idiotic choice it was given not everyone owns a PS5 or even wants to play it, means he actively screwed over a large chunk of his own playerbase for the sake of another game.

This is what I mean by I think management for this game and other products isn't the greatest and needs to be looked at from a new perspective within in the playerbase. These are the type of choices he should come to the community at large with, not making them for us. Imagine if players didn't have so much faith in him, it could have costed him a large amount of people playing.

We need to stop making excuses for this type of behavior and thinking and lack of consideration of us.

[caffe_macchiato]

It's commonly said that FFXIV is "pog", but did you guys know that POG actually stands for "Play Other Games"? That's right, and FFXIV lets you play other games because having no content is respecting your time! For just $13 a month, I can pay another $15 a month to play a different MMO. Now that's poggers!

[Jojoya]

The whole “manderville relics are the most successful relics because they have the highest engagement” is such a stupid argument that I can’t believe yoshi p actually said it

You know what else will raise relic engagement rates- dump all 21 into your inventory the second you log in on the new patch. 100% relic engagement ooooooooh ahhhhhhhhhh

Square enix my consultation fee is 200k per year

Their criteria for success are different from yours and some other players. It's not stupid when it's accurate with respect to their goals.

What the ultimate goal for MMORPG developers? Giving players reasons to keep repeat content they've already completed for as long as possible so they stay subscribed and help fill parties for other players getting to the content for the first time later.

Have the relics done that? Certainly. Players couldn't get tomestones for the relics and XP for any jobs they were still leveling at the same time. That meant repeating the content more to get both done.

Is the system at odds with what some players feel the role of the relics should be? Yep, but those players are too few in number compared to the number that the developers are trying to engage in repeating content. Like it or not, developers have to satisfy corporate bean counters with engagement numbers. When those numbers are too low, the bean counters decide the content is a waste of resources and tell the developers to do other things instead.

Fun fact: raiding almost died as a content option in WoW back in Burning Crusade. The participation numbers were so low that the bean counters told the developers to stop wasting time and money on raids. But the developers were very passionate about the raids they had created and didn't want to stop making them. They came up with the idea of 10 mans and an additional easier difficulty that would get more players into raiding. The bean counters gave them a chance to show it would work and it did. As the saying goes, the rest is history.

It's fine to dislike the system they've chosen. The real stupid argument is to pretend it wasn't successful from the corporate viewpoint when participation numbers indicate it clearly was.

So expect relics to continue to fill the "glamour is the real end game" role going forward instead of being symbols of achievement for those with too much time on their hands. Hopefully the new Field Operations zone announced last minute will have other rewards for those with the interest and time to invest in a grind, like the Al-iklil mount. Definitely don't see many of those around and anyone that knows the source knows what pain the owner had to go through to get it.

It's commonly said that FFXIV is "pog", but did you guys know that POG actually stands for "Play Other Games"? That's right, and FFXIV lets you play other games because having no content is respecting your time! For just $13 a month, I can pay another $15 a month to play a different MMO. Now that's poggers!

You claiming the game has no content and doesn't respect your time is even more stupid as an argument.

You're the one not respecting your time or your money. If the game isn't meeting your entertainment needs, it's up to you to stop paying and playing. It's not up to the game to change to suit you.

[4clubbedace]

I should add on, why should the silent majority matter when they don't speak their mind? Honestly, look at this through a looking glass...if the silent majority absolutely hate/love something they would come out and say it on here, that's what the forums are for, discussion. The reason they don't I think, is because the consensus aligns with their point of view or the formula hasn't changed enough for them to warrant feedback (this can be negative or positive (I see it as mostly negative)). People like to say we don't represent the majority but the truth is more likely we do, at least some of them. [People who refute that premise are obviously being bad actors.]

Though, honestly we should really stop pandering to a silent majority...that accomplishes nothing..Because by the end of the day you can use that argument for anything to turn down any premise when you absolutely don't know what the major popular opinion is, it's data we can't collect. Even if we could, would it evaluate to anything meaningful(?) Mixed thoughts tend to become a blob of information if not generalized.

the descrepancy between a place like twitter, the many reddit boards, and here, are very very different.

i hardly see happy people on the forum, people come here to troll or complain.

[strawberrycake]

Their criteria for success are different from yours and some other players. It's not stupid when it's accurate with respect to their goals.

What the ultimate goal for MMORPG developers? Giving players reasons to keep repeat content they've already completed for as long as possible so they stay subscribed and help fill parties for other players getting to the content for the first time later.

Have the relics done that? Certainly. Players couldn't get tomestones for the relics and XP for any jobs they were still leveling at the same time. That meant repeating the content more to get both done.

Is the system at odds with what some players feel the role of the relics should be? Yep, but those players are too few in number compared to the number that the developers are trying to engage in repeating content. Like it or not, developers have to satisfy corporate bean counters with engagement numbers. When those numbers are too low, the bean counters decide the content is a waste of resources and tell the developers to do other things instead.

Fun fact: raiding almost died as a content option in WoW back in Burning Crusade. The participation numbers were so low that the bean counters told the developers to stop wasting time and money on raids. But the developers were very passionate about the raids they had created and didn't want to stop making them. They came up with the idea of 10 mans and an additional easier difficulty that would get more players into raiding. The bean counters gave them a chance to show it would work and it did. As the saying goes, the rest is history.

It's fine to dislike the system they've chosen. The real stupid argument is to pretend it wasn't successful from the corporate viewpoint when participation numbers indicate it clearly was.

So expect relics to continue to fill the "glamour is the real end game" role going forward instead of being symbols of achievement for those with too much time on their hands. Hopefully the new Field Operations zone announced last minute will have other rewards for those with the interest and time to invest in a grind, like the Al-iklil mount. Definitely don't see many of those around and anyone that knows the source knows what pain the owner had to go through to get it.


You claiming the game has no content and doesn't respect your time is even more stupid as an argument.

You're the one not respecting your time or your money. If the game isn't meeting your entertainment needs, it's up to you to stop paying and playing.

You know theres a saying, if a person spends more time trying rationalize why a corporation does what it over meeting the peoples needs, they're part of the problem. So hows that boot taste?

Also 10 man Raids and Hard mode raids historically were STILL too hard for casuals and they ends up making LFR, which was still too hard for casuals, they then made Mythic + and Mythic raiding and the easier difficulties were still too hard for casuals and now all of that is now geared towards raiders and raid prog.

So your point now boils down to, why cater to casuals who always whine about how they aren't catered to, when they are and still aren't happy.