Discuss : is ffxiv in trouble

[Katish]

Because, "qui tacet consentire videtur - he who is silent is taken to agree". They are speaking their minds, through their silence. It's called the silence procedure.

People without complaints, are happy with things as they are, they don't have a reason to complain. It doesn't matter if you see it as a negative, it's a commonly understood principle, even with legislations and diplomacy.


This is a silly argument to hold. The company isn't going to make big changes to the game to keep the vocal minority happy. If they did, they'd risk alienating the majority, losing subscriptions and money, and possibly having to rollback those changes anyway, wasting time and resources. If something's not broken, you don't fix it, is the safer option.

When enough people complain, thus becoming the majority, that's when changes come.

Just because someone is silent does not mean they are taken to agree, there is such things as civil unrest for a reason...that is a bad assumption and why many of wars have started lel.
And I don't want the forums to be a vocal minority either, that is why you play with the hornets nest...if it attacks you, you know you've done wrong...

Edit: Plus you can't technically use that argument if people are still posting on the forums their distaste, because it refutes that it truly is "silent". Unless you assume the forum doesn't share the opinions of some of the full "silent" majority, then you are bad actor, because statistically that is very improbable.

[Erzaa]

Just because someone is silent does not mean they are taken to agree, there is such things as civil unrest for a reason...

Uhm... no. It is. Civil unrest isn't silence, it's build up to what leads to revolution, war and eventual change. If people in large numbers started unsubscribing, voicing the same complaints amongst themselves as the forums do, that's the equivalent to civil unrest.

I'm not talking about people being silenced through force. Nobody's forcing the playerbase to be silent by using force. They're silent because they don't feel like there's anything to complain about. You're welcome to look up the silence procedure for yourself.

Edit: Plus you can't technically use that argument if people are still posting on the forums their distaste, because it refutes that it truly is "silent". Unless you assume we don't share the opinions of the full majority, then you are bad actor.

I didn't make that argument. I made the argument that listening to the vocal minority over the silent majority could possibly lead to the silent majority becoming vocal, which would be much worse for the company and their profits, and disputing your argument that they should listen to the people voicing their distaste on the forums.

Why listen to what one person in a room wants to do, when the other ten disagree? How's that fair to the other ten people? I mean, the Greeks figured this out millenia ago.

[Katish]

Uhm... no. It is. Civil unrest isn't silence, it's build up to what leads to revolution, war and eventual change. If people in large numbers started unsubscribing, voicing the same complaints amongst themselves as the forums do, that's the equivalent to civil unrest.

I'm not talking about people being silenced through force. Nobody's forcing the playerbase to be silent by using force. They're silent because they don't feel like there's anything to complain about. You're welcome to look up the silence procedure for yourself.


I didn't make that argument. I made the argument that listening to the vocal minority over the silent majority could possibly lead to the silent majority becoming vocal, which would be much worse for the company and their profits, and disputing your argument that they should listen to the people voicing their distaste on the forums.

Why listen to what one person in a room wants to do, when the other ten disagree? How's that fair to the other ten people? I mean, the Greeks figured this out millenia ago.

Would the major opinion becoming vocal be bad? THEN they would look to the forum more for how to continue, and be able to gather information rather quickly. You can't really say that faithfully...as for your example, it's not fair but that's why they SPEAK up. You can't gauge someone disagreeing if they never disagreed in the first place the same vice versa. If someone is quiet, you can't assume they agree with you.

[Erzaa]

Would the major opinion becoming vocal be bad? THEN they would look to the forum more for how to continue, and be able to gather information rather quickly. You can't really say that faithfully... it's not fair but that's why they SPEAK up. I feel like they are both agreeing to the same thing.

That's not for me to say. I'm not making any claims if the game is good or bad.

I'm saying, anybody who listens to the complaints of the minority, risks alienating the majority who're happy with the status quo, and risks causing serious issues for themselves.

If the forum's complaints are really shared by the rest (we've no data for that one way or the other), and enough people began complaining, such that they became the majority, the company would then make changes. They've done so in the past.

I guess, the best way I can see the forum posters to promote their complaints would be to try and get the rest of the playerbase to view their complaints, have them decide if maybe they agree, and if they agree with the proposed changes, and then increase their numbers in petitioning SE for change.

[Katish]

That's not for me to say. I'm not making any claims if the game is good or bad.

I'm saying, anybody who listens to the complaints of the minority, risks alienating the majority who're happy with the status quo, and risks causing serious issues for themselves.

If the forum's complaints are really shared by the rest (we've no data for that one way or the other), and enough people began complaining, such that they became the majority, the company would then make changes. They've done so in the past.

That is hard to say if the later is even true, male Viera was only brought about after the forum took to the hills and went 400+ pages on it... lel
But it's hard to gauge opinion when a topic is more nuanced...and when it does not reflect everyone's opinions because someone just does not care because of "X"...like healers for example.
For example, Tanks and DPS jobs do not care what happens to the healer role as it does not affect their own game play to engage enough with these forums so the overall turnout is lower (I still do believe they reflect a good majority of the player base though, it just does not see as much light).

I appreciate this discussion though, thank you, it definitely is food for thought.

[Erzaa]

That is hard to say if the later is even true, male Viera was only brought about after the forum took to the hills and went 400+ pages on it... lel
But it's hard to gauge opinion when a topic is more nuanced...and when it does not reflect everyone's opinions because someone just does not care because of "X"...like healers for example.
For example, Tanks and DPS jobs do not care what happens to the healer role as it does not affect their own game play to engage enough with these forums so the overall turnout is lower (I still do believe they reflect a good majority of the player base though, it just does not see as much light).

I mean... you're right. It's hard for people to understand and empathise with others' experiences when they haven't experienced it themselves. All anyone can do is try and make the rest understand, but even that's not so easy, because people might agree on the problem, but even amongst themselves disagree on the solution.

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

Your discussion really was interesting but I would like to add to this :

That is hard to say if the later is even true, male Viera was only brought about after the forum took to the hills and went 400+ pages on it... lel

I really don't think the forum has anything else than a minimal impact on these things. Especially the non-JP forums. There have been issues discussed for hundred of pages that went under the water because people just stopped complaining as time went on... And other things no one complained about that were changed. Maybe they're listening to the forums, but I think they roll more on the statistics they get from people playing the game, and their own wills more than what can be gathered here. Especially given how controversial some issues are on the forum.

[Katish]

Your discussion really was interesting but I would like to add to this :


I really don't think the forum has anything else than a minimal impact on these things. Especially the non-JP forums. There have been issues discussed for hundred of pages that went under the water because people just stopped complaining as time went on... And other things no one complained about that were changed. Maybe they're listening to the forums, but I think they roll more on the statistics they get from people playing the game, and their own wills more than what can be gathered here. Especially given how controversial some issues are on the forum.

I also believe this to be true, but I wish they would pay attention to the actual feedback rather than just stats. Stats don't tell the whole story, like the post above mentioned, engagement of the relics are because they are easy to get. Not so much out of enjoyment. (Which allows for higher item lvl, but I digress).

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Would the major opinion becoming vocal be bad? THEN they would look to the forum more for how to continue, and be able to gather information rather quickly. You can't really say that faithfully...as for your example, it's not fair but that's why they SPEAK up. You can't gauge someone disagreeing if they never disagreed in the first place the same vice versa. If someone is quiet, you can't assume they agree with you.

I think you severely overestimate how many people are upset.



Yes some posts on the forums balloon in size, but it's generally the same group within posting. Even people who visit the forums regularly, like many who post in the show your <race> threads, don't post in the negative feedback ones because they don't feel the need to.

[Katish]

I think you severely overestimate how many people are upset.



Yes some posts on the forums balloon in size, but it's generally the same group within posting. Even people who visit the forums regularly, like many who post in the show your <race> threads, don't post in the negative feedback ones because they don't feel the need to.

Not sure what you are commenting on. But I did bring that up lel. Unless you meant something else by that(?) Sorry then, please explain.

Thank you. =]