Big fishing is poorly designed and isn't very fun

[PotatoTree]

After doing a lot of content in this game, nothing has made me realize more that it is all pointless and to unsub than fishing. The reason is the standard deviation of people who are lucky vs unlucky is just too big. In no way is it fun to see someone catch a fish their first try while you have to sit there window after window. This is not like some other horrible grind in the game (which are also extremely lazy game design, but that is beside the point) where everyone who has completed the grind has spent the same amount of time in it. And it's not like while I'm sitting there doing attempts I'm getting some other passive bonus. No, the junk fish I fish up are worthless, and most of the time the mechanics of fishing actively encourage you to not real anything in so you don't even get any spiritbond/other achievements, etc. You're literally just pissing away your time into the wind for zero progress on your character.

"But that's fishing, the rng/torture/whatever is part of the fun"

Yea no. When I finish this stupid achievement it won't be pride I feel, only anger that it took so long when it could have taken so much less time. There is only a feeling of injustice that my shot at the reward was artificially harder than someone else's attempt.

I remember when someone quit the game after it took them 800+ Dragon's Neck dungeons to get the TT card, when everyone around them got it in like less than 10-50 runs. These kind of large variances should be protected against so the occasional player does not fall through the statistical cracks, anything else is poor and lazy game design. Think about it this way, a player that is excited for getting good rng and one-shotting this content is literally getting excited about not having to do this content anymore.

And on top of that the content just doesn't respect the players time. Having to wake up at ungodly hours, be out of luck if you have work or other scheduled events, etc is not fun. There is no world where anything involving a "jail" is fun in any way, like the literal name for the strategy shows you how negative the experience is.

How would I fix it? Change it so that player skill or decisions can greatly augment the chances of catching the fish. For example, the choices of ability usage, the timing of hooking in fish, etc. And add a method where the player can augment the timing windows so they don't have to get up at 4am. Fish Eyes should work for legendary fish, why the arbitrary limitation? There is ZERO skill in abiding to some 2 week long wait for some rare window.

"Just don't do fishing if you hate it so much. Just unsub if you don't like the game". That is not a valid excuse for poor game design. The devs put this into the game, added rewards that can only be achieved through this path, then therefore it is valid to criticize this content.

Here are some free ideas for better fish design:
1. intuition that pops if you catch 5 different fish in some specific order. The fishes have bite times or are slappable in a way that allows an informed fisher to correctly catch these fish in order.
2. an ability that removes the slip rate of the fish on hooking, but only usable under some condition such as catching 20 fish in the fishing hole. This allows better prepared fishers to augment their luck.
3. if you fish in a party, if one person catches the fish it gives a rate up buff to everyone in the party. In this way fishers can recruit buddies to help improve their odds.
4. Add some way to get a big fish masterball-type bait, maybe through some repeatable weekly questline involving doing other content in the game. That way the fisher can grind a big fish through a different means, or at least have some way to progress while waiting for a long fish window.
5. Maybe add a negative-intuition/super surface slap mechianic, like if you catch 10 copies of a fish at a hole you can pop this ability that gives you a 10m negative intuition buff that makes this fish not show up anymore like it was slapped. Players can prep and stack multiple of these for different fish to try to filter the pool for the big fish. Catching 10 of a fish requires some player agency since you have choices on how you want to identical/triple cast and how to manage your GP for such a strategy, and also the player can show up to a window early and be rewarded for being better prepared.

And I don't want some BS where in after adding these designs in the fish is tuned to be even more rare to offset the increased odds. Fish should take at most 2-3 windows to catch through blind luck, and a less than 30m of player time if some strategy is employed. If the devs want to increase player time, add MORE fish with lower rng spread instead of making a specific fish super rare that someone can catch it first try and someone else can take 20+ hours on it. That's not fun.

Fishing RNG and atma RNG are the same, and there is a reason nobody liked Atmas. Tsuyoshi “Mr. Atma” Yokozawa is not hailed as some genius for adding that to the game, nobody looks at the time spent on that fondly as fun or rewarding. A third party observer looking over my shoulder when I'm raiding can see why someone would want to play the game and why it is fun, but the same observer would conclude the game sucks if they see me grinding atmas or fishing. Mechanics based purely on rng are archaic and lazy in this day and age.

TLDR: Big fishing is not fun, does not respect the players time, and anyone who says otherwise has some Stockholm syndrome.

[PotatoTree]

Here's the fun parts of big fishing that I think the devs should focus more on:

1. reading the lore about the fish in the log, looking at their cool art, collecting the fish like collecting pokemon, putting them in aquariums, etc.
2. in some fish you have to actively decide on how you want to use your abilities to maximize your chances. For example, sea butterfly you have to do your catches in a way that you end on slapping the scorpionfish while the intuition pops. Some strategy in the fishing process makes it more interesting. Being able to correctly predict which fish is on the line based on what you slapped and the bite time is fun and rewarding too, as in players who have done their research, have additional knowledge, and are paying attention are rewarded.
3. the community, a bunch of people at the same spot working towards the same goal is fun to participate in

What is not fun:
1. arbitrary long time between windows. I have work, a sleep schedule, other obligations, etc. Jailing and strategies that require me to not do other content while waiting is not fun.
2. RNG spread. I'm ok with RNG, but for extremely rare events you can have a very large spread of people who get something early and people who get something very late. Reduce the standard deviation or allow players to control their luck through skill or preparation.

[Hasrat]

Have you considered the idea that if it is not fun for you, you don't need to engage with it, rather than trying to take away what might be fun for others?

[JokoCGN]

Have you considered the idea that if it is not fun for you, you don't need to engage with it, rather than trying to take away what might be fun for others?

Peeps having fun about this specific critisism OP told, they are mad.
OP didn't say fishing is crap at all.
He/she just picked up the most frustrating options and brought some ideas to make it more 'reliable' or 'rewarding' - in a positive way, like teaming up with other peeps or thinking more about different strategies than just looking up a YT vid or reading TC informations.

So.. OP did a good job even defs won't care. ^^

[PotatoTree]

Have you considered the idea that if it is not fun for you, you don't need to engage with it, rather than trying to take away what might be fun for others?

What if I want the Title or finish the Achievement log for example? And it's not like I'm saying give it to me for free, I'm willing to go through the content to get it.

However it's also perfectly ok for me to say rolling a 500 sided dice at 4am in the morning to get such a reward is not fun. Yet even then I'm not saying to delete it from the game, I'm offering you suggestions on how to make rolling this dice fun. Cause right now looking at it in any objective way this is poorly designed.

Here's an example that would fix the issue, instead of a 2 week window that opens up a 4am, give players a weekly they can do every week to get a drop. After 2 drops the player can trade for a bait they can use at any time. If the devs wanted to artificially time limit us with these 2 week windows to get more subs, then that is still there, but now the player doesn't need to get up at 4am or miss a window due to work. Is that not acceptable?

[DrWho2010]

perhaps, but the devs have had 10+ years to make any kind of significant nerfs to big fishing other than what they've already done with fish eyes. The appetite is just not there.

[Hasrat]

What if I want the Title or finish the Achievement log for example?

You either let go of that desire for an arbitrary and meaningless accomplishment, or you accept the content in the form that some may currently enjoy.

I want a lot of Deep Dungeon stuff, but I'm not out here asking to implement Duty Support for it or give it solo echo buffs etc. I accept the content is designed with intention and is overall fair, it's simply content design I'm not thoroughly invested in engaging with.

Like. You keep bringing up fish windows at bad hours for you. For you. The fish are up at the same time for everybody, time zones exist. What works for you won't work for someone else. And, more importantly, there are always more windows. You keep trying to "fix" a problem you are responsible for subjecting yourself to. Just go to bed and try catching the fish at another time. There is literally nothing about virtual fishing that is ever worth disrupting your sleep or work or whatever else.

[All_Nonsense]

I will agree I think we've gotten away from skill-based fishing for sure. It's all about reaching breakpoints, using the right bait, showing up for the 2 seconds the fish is up for the next 2 weeks, and getting lucky. It's not really a rewarding structure. Ironically, in my opinion the best fishing that rewards informed fishers who are also skilled is ocean fishing, where your knowledge, execution, and luck all come together to determine how many points you can get. I think fishing could definitely use a rework but at this point with 900,000 fish in the game the chances of a meaningful rework are slim to none ever, and the rng "get lucky" trend will simply continue endlessly until end of lifecycle.

[Calysto]

As a Fisher, I''m more into the "fishing log" part ; the titles & achievements, sure, I'll take them.

That said, Fishing in itself isn't really that rewarding ; and for some fishes, the best part is being done with them and never going back.
The relief after a few dozens windows is a truly great feeling that the lucky people getting it first try due to RNG will never know XD

Still, I wouldn't complain if there was a bit more skill involved or if some big fishes were at least more frequents.
The S.Whale just took a 2 week breaks, and due to work/sleep/etc, I'm unlikely to have a go at it for another 2 weeks myself, so I guess I'll log once a week to the chores and wait till the next I can try... Not really worth a sub.

I think fishing could definitely use a rework but at this point with 900,000 fish in the game the chances of a meaningful rework are slim to none ever

Weekly random fish delivery or just changing desynth pool from sand to whatever would be easy to make and add usefulness to the class that it lacks deeply

[PotatoTree]

Like. You keep bringing up fish windows at bad hours for you. For you. The fish are up at the same time for everybody, time zones exist. What works for you won't work for someone else. And, more importantly, there are always more windows. You keep trying to "fix" a problem you are responsible for subjecting yourself to. Just go to bed and try catching the fish at another time. There is literally nothing about virtual fishing that is ever worth disrupting your sleep or work or whatever else.

I literally gave a suggestion in the post you quote that fixes the problem for everyone, while maintaining whatever arbitrarily long window SE wants.

You either let go of that desire for an arbitrary and meaningless accomplishment, or you accept the content in the form that some may currently enjoy.

I'm still completely in my right to complain. After all, that's what these forums are for, and devs won't know their content is not good if nobody ever complains.

So far all I hear is "the content is what it is, just deal with it". Surely you'd desire for the game to improve and not to drive people away right? There is absolutely nothing wrong with asking from improvements on a forum dedicated to discussing these topics. And really the even the biggest SE supporter or fishing supporter can see that some of these mechanics are very anti-fun.

Anyway, I've already mentioned that in the end it's all pointless. Of course the next sub cycle my solution is to unsub, but since I do still support the game the devs deserves to know why I decided to unsub. To a good dev player feedback is more valuable than the actual sub.

I'd feel like your points would have more weight if this game wasn't a subscription game, but needing to wait for additional windows due to bad timezones is literally costing players money. Maybe that was SE's intent, but surely you agree that keeping people subbed through arbitrary time locks instead of engaging content is really bad form?