Let's play a game: Save the Ancients!

[Cleretic]

When you actually find any evidence demonstrating the existence of these people who have supposedly claimed they want the mortals to die in favour of the Ancients, or literally anywhere their appearance or, uh, "perfection" (I mean, really?) has been shown to play into these arguments, let me know. In the mean time, I'll send you over some straw, you must be running low by now.

...the person literally right above this post spent the past two pages trying to argue that it's okay for us to leave the modern world to die so that we can instead try to save the Ancients. (And frankly, this is already the most kindness I've ever seen readheadturk offer the sundered people.) Vyreus tried to attack Cilia's arguments for being anti-perfection. If you can't read that far, I'm not going to help you any further, you clearly aren't listening.

And of course the Ancients are all pretty people who people fall for. Have you been on the internet?

And ya know what? That is where telling them after the congruence in a way that it won't matter if it strands us comes in. Besides, if we leave behind a message in a bottle so to speak for them to find after we've gone back no harm, no foul. How can it strand us if we've already returned and the timeline is still in flux? Is there a chance our message in a bottle may not be found in time? sure, but it's better than being "hurp a derp, nothing we can do" with our fingers in our ears and our thumbs up our butts.

A 'message in a bottle' doesn't work, specifically because of the timeline split you're trying to make happen. The message can't get to the Scions, if the timestream doesn't flow to them. And that's even putting aside that you can't make a message that'd get to them anyway; the Calamities grind everything to dust. The only message that ever got there was Erich's memory crystal, and that thing was garbled to hell and only arrived in a weird place the Scions weren't looking, so no, that's a terrible way to get an important message out.

So what the WoL would have to do in your (very poorly considered) scenario is basically to pick a point in the Elpis trip to stop, go back to the Scions, tell them what they've learned and then go back. Okay, I'll ride this and see where this goes. To do this, we need to figure out at what point does the WoL have actionable information, that the Scions can use?

After talking to Elidibus, learning that Elpis was a place run by Fandaniel? Firmly 'that's nice, dear'-level information, that doesn't help.
After learning Emet was there? Of course Emet knew Fandaniel, that's not news.
On meeting Hermes and Meteion? At this point, they're innocent bystanders; not useful.
On meeting Venat? That's almost an actionable lead, it proves Hydaelyn might know something, but not one of direct usefulness.
When Meteion starts getting the report back? At best you've found the likely culprit, but that doesn't help. Getting a name to curse as you die doesn't avoid dying.

Really, the only choice is after Ktisis, when the WoL returns anyway; it's in Ktisis that we learn that Meteion is definitely the culprit, as well as why, and that Venat tagged her and so probably knows her whereabouts. So essentially we're looking at a scenario where the WoL completes all of Elpis, bails out the Scions in Garlemald (at least, I hope; your idea better not be 'leave Krile a memo'), and then tell them 'hey, ask Hydaelyn, I'm gonna go help her back in the Before Times'.

Because you realize that's what they would do, right? The WoL can't save this independently, and wouldn't want to. Venat doesn't just know everything actionable here save for maybe 'what it's like to die to the End of Days',which I probably wouldn't call helpful; she's also better known in the Ancient world, better equipped to either figure out a solution or to find people to help her--which is, y'know, what she did. The WoL is a blind idiot in this context, and like in every context in which they're a blind idiot (i.e. every expansion, often more than once), they'll defer to someone who knows the place better.

And Venat didn't want our help; she wanted us to go back and help the Scions. Because she knew which end of the timeline we'd actually be useful in.

[redheadturk]

No, I obviously meant leave it for the Convocation [primarily Emet and Elidibus] to find after we're gone detailing what happened in Ktisis,I can't understand how you didn't get that.

[Cleretic]

No, I obviously meant leave it for the Convocation [primarily Emet and Elidibus] to find after we're gone detailing what happened in Ktisis,I can't understand how you didn't get that.

I took it to mean 'a message in the bottle to the Scions' because it was the only thing that made sense with your logic, even if it was still a flawed and bad idea. You used 'them', and it was ambiguous, so I jumped to what I thought was the rational conclusion. I'm sorry that I assumed you made a better argument than you did.

A message in a bottle to the Convocation is so much worse in such fundamental ways that I'm not sure you understand how anything works. Because the timeline split wouldn't be 'Nabriales looked at a crystal', that's not the thing that changed: it would be 'the WoL put a memory crystal in the mail'. By making and leaving the crystal, you would by nature be stranding yourself.

And not only that, you would be stranding yourself in an effort that makes the problem worse. There's a reason Venat doesn't tell them.

[Lunaxia]

...the person literally right above this post spent the past two pages trying to argue that it's okay for us to leave the modern world to die so that we can instead try to save the Ancients. (And frankly, this is already the most kindness I've ever seen readheadturk offer the sundered people.) Vyreus tried to attack Cilia's arguments for being anti-perfection. If you can't read that far, I'm not going to help you any further, you clearly aren't listening.

...I see one guy pursuing the alternate timeline idea which wouldn't have any bearing on ours, and another making their own case why they feel the Ancients weren't given a fair shot. Nowhere has it been suggested that the mortals should die or that the Ancients were in any way perfect.

And of course the Ancients are all pretty people who people fall for. Have you been on the internet?

Oh! Right. This is all entirely your perception and nothing anyone has actually said. Good to know.

[Iscah]

I have to thank a friend for this, but there is yet another context clue for the protagonist that the timeline G'raha hailed from still exists: G'raha's memories of that timeline still exist. If the timeline had vanished, the aether that makes up G'raha's memories of that timeline would have poofed too. They didn't, as we'd know because we uh. . .inserted those memories into his younger body on the source?

I don't see how that proves anything that his continued physical existence doesn't already prove (or fail to definitively prove).

In the hypothetical scenario from the characters' perspective that the other timeline was destroyed but G'raha wasn't taken with it, the continued existence of his incorporeal memory-aether is no more significant than the continued existence of his corporeal aether. If one can survive the obliteration of its source, why shouldn't the other?

[SannaR]

I took it to mean 'a message in the bottle to the Scions' because it was the only thing that made sense with your logic, even if it was still a flawed and bad idea. You used 'them', and it was ambiguous, so I jumped to what I thought was the rational conclusion. I'm sorry that I assumed you made a better argument than you did.

A message in a bottle to the Convocation is so much worse in such fundamental ways that I'm not sure you understand how anything works. Because the timeline split wouldn't be 'Nabriales looked at a crystal', that's not the thing that changed: it would be 'the WoL put a memory crystal in the mail'. By making and leaving the crystal, you would by nature be stranding yourself.

And not only that, you would be stranding yourself in an effort that makes the problem worse. There's a reason Venat doesn't tell them.

Not sure how I understood redheadturk but anyway I think he means to somehow chuck it into the Aetherial Sea while time magics are on it? Though I do think he suggested at one point to make one around the time we're finishing up with Pandeamonium. You know make a memory crystal and "accidentally" drop it as you say goodbye to Elidibus and Lahabrea while the WoL is still in the past. Have the WoL fringe ignorance if either of them notice we dropped something. We know the briefing about Pandeamonium happens some time before the Final Days so they would be able to be slightly warned ahead of time. Not that I like Lahabrea, but if he is able to kill his wife and keep it a secret from the rest of the Convocation I'm sure he'd be able to use some tact if he saw/heard what was on the crystal. Elidibus also probably would know how to be smart about what's on the memory crystal.

[ZavosEsperian]

Granted, I've taken time away from the game in recent months, so if we've had more information that contradicts this then feel free to correct me, but how exactly do we know this? The last I heard, it was merely supposition. G'raha has never actually made the attempt to return to his time, so how do we - or they - know that's even the case that we couldn't return to our own?

The direct answer to this would be that there is insufficient evidence to back the claim that you cannot travel between Timesteam A to timestream B and then back to timestream A in terms of FFXIV, especially since the writers have used multiple different ideas as to how time travel works in FFXIV.

G'raha allows for us to assume alternate timelines that have no bearing on the host timeline do exist in FFXIV via his continued existence along with Tales from the Shadow: An Unpromised Tomorrow, which is a continuation of G'raha's original timeline after he leaves. Due to this timeline existing after G'raha in our timeline averts the 8th Umbral Calamity, the conditions required to satisfy his existence are not negated upon averting the 8th Umbral Calamity. Furthermore, how you view time travel in Elpis is open-ended as per the writer's wishes in a lore Q&A:

Q: I don’t really understand why the Warrior of Light messing around in Elpis didn’t create any alternate timelines. Can you explain what happened?

A: First of all, we’ve left that part up to interpretation.

-Letter from the Producer LIVE Part LXVIII (03/03/2022)

This quote above was spoken by Yoshi-P in Japanese and was live translated by Kate, all of which was on behalf of the writing team. Due to this, there is no definitive way to define the mechanisms used for time travel in this case without the use of headcanons. Anything else you have heard about how time travel works besides what the game says on the subject or what the writers themselves have said so far is strictly in the realms of headcanons as no one except for the writing team is an absolute authority on this subject.

The mainstream theory to how alternate timelines work is based around the Many-Worlds Interpretation, which given what that theory allows, would allow for all possibilities to exist across an infinite number of universes which make up a grand multiverse. While having two, independent, timestreams does lend itself towards this particular theory being the backbone of how G'raha Tia works, using two universes to justify every possibility being completely true in fiction is not a leap I am willing to make. I am only presenting this as to where the inspiration of G'raha Tia's time traveling antics likely come from. It is important to note the writing team did use a lot of real world analogues in developing certain in-game things, such as the Ea who directly cite how the end of universe will occur due to heat death or when entropy reaches its maximum or how Dynamis constitutes 68.3% of all energy in FFXIV's universe, which is similar to how Dark Energy (the expansional energy of the Universe) makes up around 68~69% of the total energy in the universe.

As far as what the WoL would experience, everything would seem like it is all one timestream. The only proof of external timelines regarding what the WoL experiences is G'raha Tia and his continued existence since he is from another timestream. We have the benefit as outside observers to know more than the actual character themselves because we are not part of the system.

Note I am not expecting anyone to read the links to all the science stuff I linked, I can barely get people to read official source material from the game itself as it is when I cite it.

I've yet to see any in this thread, nor even in any of the threads I've frequented in the entire time I've been here, including one popularly reviled as a haven for Ascian boot-lickers. It feels more like a fantasy that exists to conveniently undermine anyone with even the slightest inclination to question the Ancients' part in the story, honestly.

You probably won't see this because it is not necessary to do this in a universe where time travel as shown in FFXIV is allowed, which does include the likes of alternate timelines. Why someone would purposely bloody their own hands in a world of alternate timelines is beyond my comprehension.

[Vyrerus]

...as far as the WoL would know...

This actually just opens up a sort of ludonarrative can of worms that's been ever present, but usually doesn't have attention called to itself until after MSQ segments have concluded (and then again later in seasonal/anniversary events).

That can of worms being that half the time, the story treats the WoL as the promotional WoL who is a unique character who we have no say in.

The other half of the time, the WoL is treated like the adventurer from FFXI, wherein we get a wink-wink, nudge nudge that the WoL is us, the player.

You see it during The Rising. You see it when having conversations with, "The Wandering Minstrel." You see it especially in the Iroha crossover Fate events, where you also get the notion that your WoL is somehow intertwined with your adventurer from FFXI.

These are Fourth Wall breaks, but they are indeed genuine. So all of the time, we the player, know that alternate timelines never die out as shown by the 8UC short story. And half the time our WoL is treated like they know what we know.

Barring cutscene incompetence and plot related blockheadery, it's been a real let down that the WoL did nothing to try and cause a timeline branch. Especially since the 8UC short story where hope is kept alive and Midgardsormr wakes up has existed since before Endwalker came out.

In a game series that started with the idea of changing fate within the context of a time loop, having a similar theme to challenging fate appear again and again, it really makes Endwalker stand out like a sore thumb. The one time fate can't be changed. The one time fate shouldn't be changed. The one time we must accept that we must not only be complicit in evil, but accept the person perpetrating said evil as not evil. Also the one time where we must actively kowtow to a villain's whims from the advice that we should fear what will happen.

So it's little wonder that some folks root for the old villains. There's nothing inspiring or heroic in this story anymore. Just kill or be killed and listen to your betters. Trust and believe them. Take whatever they tell you on faith. Do not desire even the possibility of a better outcome.

Remember all that you hold dear is being held hostage by causality.

Not the game I fell in love with. Not the series I fell in love with. A pale imitation wearing modded clown shoes.

[Iscah]

The direct answer to this would be that there is insufficient evidence to back the claim that you cannot travel between Timesteam A to timestream B and then back to timestream A in terms of FFXIV, especially since the writers have used multiple different ideas as to how time travel works in FFXIV.

I have written previously (and do not have time for the full essay today) that I don't believe they have used multiple ideas – or at least, those multiple ideas can operate within a single consistent set of rules about how time travel works.

TL;DR the time traveller needs to know what happened in the past before they have a hope of changing it, because they need to change the outcome of events they know should happen. G'raha was prepared for this, we were not and could not be.

That can of worms being that half the time, the story treats the WoL as the promotional WoL who is a unique character who we have no say in.

The other half of the time, the WoL is treated like the adventurer from FFXI, wherein we get a wink-wink, nudge nudge that the WoL is us, the player.

You see it during The Rising. You see it when having conversations with, "The Wandering Minstrel." You see it especially in the Iroha crossover Fate events, where you also get the notion that your WoL is somehow intertwined with your adventurer from FFXI.

I think you're stitching together something that isn't there.

A two-minute fourth-wall-breaking conversation per year that is explicitly outside the character's reality and a one-shot crossover event based on FFXI are not proof that "half the time" the writers want to treat us how they treated the FFXI character (if that is accurate).

Even the Iroha event isn't a fourth wall break, it just tries to draw a line between the player's XIV character and their hypothetical XI character.

The closest might be the (IMO over-laboured) business of characters in Endwalker asking whether your journey was good and meaningful, but even then it happens primarily within context of the character, and any "they're really asking us-the-player" is a secondary implicit reading.

The character does not and should not spontaneously acquire knowledge simply because the player knows it, and this has never happened so far.

In a game series that started with the idea of changing fate within the context of a time loop, having a similar theme to challenging fate appear again and again, it really makes Endwalker stand out like a sore thumb. The one time fate can't be changed. The one time fate shouldn't be changed.

Are you talking about 1.0 or earlier FFs? Either way it's nothing that I'm aware of in this game as I know it.

In any case this isn't the first and only time we've had a stable time loop story in FFXIV. Alexander was all about the time loop having to play out consistently and ultimately that we needed to stop time from being altered by an enemy who wanted to overwrite events in their favour.

Elpis doesn't stand out to me at all. It was logical from the moment they talked about going there that this would have to be a case of not disturbing the timeline, just observing events that had already happened, and gaining knowledge of unrecorded history because we need to know that history to save the present.

[ZavosEsperian]

TL;DR the time traveller needs to know what happened in the past before they have a hope of changing it, because they need to change the outcome of events they know should happen. G'raha was prepared for this, we were not and could not be.

Okay. Based on your statement and the rules I have set up; I shall propose an adequate solution assuming the point in which we time travel from is post 6.55:

Cid and Nero work together to build a time machine that is capable of complete bidirectional travel and giving us a requisite amount of aether to interact with the environment after examining records left behind inside of the Crystal Tower on the First that we retrieve for them (note, we destroyed The Tycoon and I do not believe we destroyed anything else related to possible records left over should they exist. If I am incorrect in this assertion, I would like a citation and I will change this to be more adequate). We use the time machine to go back to Elpis inside of an alternate timeline and proceed to stop everything as we now have full knowledge as to what is going to happen due to our previous experiences. As such, by your statement, we can alter history and, with that, are able to save the Ancients.

Nothing I have stated above conflicts directly with pre-established lore post 6.55 nor does it conflict with any statements from the writers as far as I am aware. As this is a headcanoned argument, much like what I am used to seeing, there are good chances I may have missed something, but if I did, I would like these things pointed out with complete citations. Failure to do so will mean I will disregard the argument on the same grounds most individuals here tend to when they argue from a point of headcanons.

Since you directly referenced my previous post, it is expected that you know what I have cited, particularly since you believe there is only one mode of time travel, which means all forms of time travel have the potential to yield alternate timelines per arguments made in the post I made prior.

If you do find something that does contradict my approach, feel free to cite it. I will look over the citation along with its context and adjust as needed, possibility and headcanons are flexible like this. If you take issues with my methods of coming up with this scenario, understand the question of this thread exists inside of the realm of possibility and that, per other previous posts, you cannot successfully argue either it is possible to save the Ancients or it is not possible to save the Ancients as true because there is not enough information to do so, which you would know if you read the post you referenced completely.