Let's play a game: Save the Ancients!

[Vyrerus]

There is absolutely nothing to establish that as fact.

There is, and it's the 8UC short story they put up that established that an alternate timeline still exists where their own time machine had no effect on their own timeline (meaning their own time machine cannot interact with their own timeline). But I get it. It's a deeply convoluted mess, and you've spent a lot of time thinking about and seeing it a certain way.

[Cleretic]

I am surprised you are this negative towards any ideas like this and to justify it you bring up the butterfly effect of all things. The butterfly effect implies determinism which is entirely incongruent with the Final Fantasy franchise as a whole at the narrative level, where defying fate (opposite of what determinism stands for as determinism states things are bound to happen regardless of what happens, which isn't very Final Fantasy) tends to be an ever-present theme in most, if not all, Final Fantasy titles. It begs this question: Why are you playing a game/game series where determinism is one of the least supported concepts in its themes, and is usually torn to shreds by the end of the game?

Understand I do not mean this in any negative capacity. It is just an observation that I want an answer to. Whether you indulge me is up to you, we haven't exactly been the most cordial with each other recently.

Would you prefer I say 'domino effect'? Because the point I was making was that in the context of stopping the Ancients from falling apart, you can't do a direct problem-solve if you're starting after the Metia have left; there is no means to do so. This is even true for Venat, who had a wealth of social resources available to her and knowledge of the society she's gonna use them in. It's even more true for the WoL, who in this context is a weak idiot with no friends. (That last part's a big problem, because the WoL's ostensible greatest strength is having a lot of those.) This is even a thing you yourself agree on, because your own plan still starts before that point.

If you want to save the Ancients, but only start with the WoL themselves after Ktisis (or Pandaemonium, which doesn't meaningfully change anything here), either physically present or not, you'd better have an insanely elaborate plan that can be weaved out of literally nothing, because that's what you've got. In my eyes, the butterfly effect is its best hope, the notion that the WoL can beat their proverbial wings and cause exactly the one storm you need. And frankly, that sounds like a terrible plan.

I'm negative towards ideas that are bad. And readheadturk's idea was so bad, and so poorly-articulated, that we wound up with three different interpretations of it that are all fundamentally terrible.

If you want me to be positive towards an idea, make it a good idea. It's quite simple.

[Iscah]

There is, and it's the 8UC short story they put up that established that an alternate timeline still exists where their own time machine had no effect on their own timeline (meaning their own time machine cannot interact with their own timeline). But I get it. It's a deeply convoluted mess, and you've spent a lot of time thinking about and seeing it a certain way.

The short story only establishes that the other future still exists, not that it has split apart all the way back to the dawn of time. It only needs to split as far back as whatever key event defined the beginning of a change that ensured the Calamity could not occur.

We have no proof that the earliest effects of the time travel did or did not take place in the history of the other timeline. They don't know the state of the First, they only work out later that it was the rejoined shard and that they need to go there, so the tower could have appeared in the history of their timeline and the Exarch's plan simply failed, resulting in a stable time loop from their perspective – not that they would know about it, as all sign of the attempt would be wiped out along with the First itself.

[redheadturk]

I'm negative towards ideas that are bad. And readheadturk's idea was so bad, and so poorly-articulated, that we wound up with three different interpretations of it that are all fundamentally terrible.

If you want me to be positive towards an idea, make it a good idea. It's quite simple.

Except they are not. The point is that given the information early enough [yes, even post Meteion dispatching] as long as it is before the Final Days themselves begin, they can Create Zodiark using ambient aether instead of actual sacrifices, giving themselves thousands of years to figure out how to deal with the angry twitter bird.

[Vyrerus]

the Exarch's plan simply failed, resulting in a stable time loop from their perspective – not that they would know about it, as all sign of the attempt would be wiped out along with the First itself.

No. If their plan could affect their own timeline, then the time where they made their time machine would cease to be, ergo, it had to go to a different timeline. If they had not written the short story, this would still be up in the air.

The proof that it's a different timeline all the way back to the beginning of time is literally what I just said. If the 8UC time machine could go back in time within the 8UC's timeline, that future would not exist, and the Crystal Tower would have faded from the face of The First once the 8th Umbral Calamity was made impossible.

I'll try to make it clearer.

If they could go back in time in the 8UC's timeline, then they could go back even further than just the 8UC's inciting event, and cause different outcomes. They could go back to before Black Rose was invented and stop its invention. There are many other possibilities, but I don't care to think of them at the moment, but do you understand?

The 8UC's Crystal Tower did not land in their past, because it could not. The short story made this the sort of time travel we are dealing with.

[Iscah]

No. If their plan could affect their own timeline, then the time where they made their time machine would cease to be, ergo, it had to go to a different timeline. If they had not written the short story, this would still be up in the air.

None of that makes sense, and the short story changes nothing except confirming whether we are in a "timeline is able to branch to support an old and new version of events" story or a "time traveller is exempt from the effects of a self-inflicted grandfather paradox" story, in favour of the former.

[Cleretic]

Except they are not. The point is that given the information early enough [yes, even post Meteion dispatching] as long as it is before the Final Days themselves begin, they can Create Zodiark using ambient aether instead of actual sacrifices, giving themselves thousands of years to figure out how to deal with the angry twitter bird.

...what? You've never put forward this 'make Zodiark using ambient aether' idea, nor has anybody else. You're gonna need to explain it, and how it is not going to somehow kill the planet by draining it of all its everything. And presumably, why the leading minds of Etheirys never came up with it if it's a perfect, no-downsides solution.

[KrasieArk]

...what? You've never put forward this 'make Zodiark using ambient aether' idea, nor has anybody else. You're gonna need to explain it, and how it is not going to somehow kill the planet by draining it of all its everything. And presumably, why the leading minds of Etheirys never came up with it if it's a perfect, no-downsides solution.

So like you know how a tank of water works? Like you our water into it and it gradually fills up right?

Zodiark was a very big bottle of Water that the Ancients needed to fill very quickly. Ergo sacrifices instant water instant filled tank.

In theory you could fill up that tank at a slower pace and still end up with the same result. I know you have a habit of arguing in bad faith but that's a pretty straight forward idea.

Where I draw criticism in the "Message is a Bottle" route is that there isnt a scenario where someone finds that message whilst the WoL isnt it Elpis. Like even as of the current patch the WoL can still actively travel back and forth to Elpis however any effect on the future only happens when the WoL is present (The Athena Saga has many examples of this).

Maybe some who isn't the person I'm quoting can answer this but do we know if time actively moves forward from when the WoL leaves Elpis and back? Because for example Asphodelus didn't appear in the Sundered World until the WoL defeated Hephaistos even though time logic says it should've been there. What Im saying here is basically using the WoL in any fashion to save the Ancients cant work unless the WoL wants to trap themself like Graha.

Also Hi new here but Ive lurked for 2 years going on Hello everyone who isnt the person Im quoting.

[Aravell]

I've been lurking and reading the thread and would like to point out some things that nobody seems to have mentioned yet.

There is one part in the sequence of events that nobody has really talked about: The time after Emet-Selch, Hythlodaeus and Hermes returned to Amaurot but before Hermes was appointed as Fandaniel. If Venat revealed the truth at that time, there would be more variables at play.

1) The previous Fandaniel would still be alive as he only returned to the star after Hermes was appointed, we can assume that he's at least as capable as Hermes.
2) There's still some time before The Final Days is meant to happen, giving them some time to plan countermeasures after going through Hermes' research about Meteion. We have to remember that it's canon that Hermes was the first one to notice the thinning of aether, nothing says that he's the only one capable of noticing.
3) If a countermeasure is implemented that doesn't involve the mass sacrifice of ancient lives, Azem would still be fully on board with the convocation.

These 3 variables from that point in time might cause quite a large difference in outcome.

Side note: I find it weird that people are in a speculation thread trying to shut down other people's speculation because their own headcanon says the characters wouldn't be up to the task. Why not just let people have their fun?

[Lyth]

Looking at the OP, it would appear that the primary topic of the thread is 'was it possible' for Amaurot to have been saved.

There are a few considerations with this. First, the thread topic is addressing the narrative sequence of events in the story we know, as opposed to theoretical future developments. That's what makes this a 'lore' discussion, rather than a 'headcanon' discussion.

It is possible, at the writers' discretion, to accomplish anything within the game universe. They set the rules, after all. The writers could, in theory, bring Haurchefant and Moenbryda back to life if they wanted to.

I can write up a solution for you right now, in fact. We petition Cid/Nidhana/Y'shtola/Gerolt for their aid in constructing a MacGuffin to save Amaurot. We go to their factory/lab/library/pub for further inspiration. They send us to Garlemald/Thavnair/Allag/Rowena to collect the necessary materials. A few patches later they provide us with the McGuffin. We activate the MacGuffin and Amaurot arrives in the present time with its original inhabitants, unharmed and in possession of their original powers. Everyone is happy, and we still haven't answered the original question.

Time travel hijinks and Tetsuya Nomura plotlines aside, I think the crux of the issue in this thread is whether Amaurot's destruction was a preventable event, taking into account the story that we were told. The writing makes it fairly clear that it unfortunately wasn't, which isn't all that surprising because it's incompatible with the primary game setting.