Let's play a game: Save the Ancients!

[Cleretic]

When it comes to the topic of the Ancients you absolutely are. However are we just going to ignore that all your examples happen in a Sundered World (AKA a Shard of 7/13ths) and in the Unsundered world we are playing by a different set of rules? Ancients don't have the restrictions in Aether like the Sundered.

In our timeline after the initial Final days killed a good portion of the Star and the Ancient people. Following that with an ever smaller population pool they managed to get more uses out of Zodiark with just their sacrifices alone no Ambient Aether required. So unless my math ain't mathing anymore I don't see why they wouldn't have an issue taking Aether from a much larger population of Ancients without requiring their bodies and souls. Call it an Aether Blood drive and take a small bit from the Star symbolism and what not.

Also your doing it again in response to Redheadturk. Bad faith arguments Tsk tsk

Zodiark was unfathomably huge as far as aether goes. Trying to do my own math here, if we just ballpark that the Ancient world and its denizens have twice as much aether in them as the current Source (I hoped the EW fisher stoyrline would shed light on this, but it doesn't), then it stands to reason that making a Zodiark now would require sacrificing the entire population, or their 'ambient aether' equivalent. That's a lot of aether, and it logically tracks with his fight; we only fought him at half-ish strength, with a pilot that had barely any experience, and he's still among the trials in this game.

For 'ambient aether drain wouldn't have been as big a deal pre-sundering' to hold, the primals threatening it need to be of comparable power to Zodiark. And they're fractions of his full power; Ramuh was made with a stockpile of crystals, Alexander is powered by what's basically an aetheric vacuum cleaner. Eureka we don't know the origins of, but we do know it wasn't making things nearly as fast or as frequently as Zodiark. Hell, while he's not directly comparable, Eden was just one sundered Ascian jacked up with a bunch of light aether, and it still nearly scoured a whole shard clean.

Yeah, I genuinely think that if Alexander walking was a potential Calamity's worth of aether drain, Zodiark doing something as significant as putting out an eternal barrier probably would've been much worse.


And my comments to Turk are just underlining the strangeness I find that the people allegedly defending the Ancients are the ones insulting them. The thing about the Ancients falling to what they did is that it lets them be as great as they were: if they were only felled by an essentially unstoppable force, then it's not a failure, it's just a loss. Similarly, Hydaelyn being the result of an Ancient group getting mass support, as the EE3 tells us, means that the Ancients went out on their terms. Even if they could never have been perfect, the Ancients were all they could have been; they were their best and did their best, and the story never takes that from them.

...but the argument of 'they could have solved this' does take that from them. It takes away their scientific intelligence by saying that they weren't smart enough to come up with your solution; it takes away their social intelligence by saying that they could easily have been swayed by a lying demagogue. It tears apart their political integrity by saying that said demagogue could've gotten that power in the first place, even though we see Lahabrea recognize and act on that exact problem with Athena.

By saying that there was some obvious perfect solution that they just didn't take, we infantilize them. That their enlightened masses were easily fooled, that their greatest minds couldn't see the obvious. That they were merely naive babes who were hopeless without our help, instead of mature adults who couldn't stop the inevitable, and eventually stopped themselves going further.

I think the Ancients deserve better than that. I can't stop you forcing them in the kiddie pool, but I can do my part by making this the last thing I say on it.

[redheadturk]

I never said they weren't smart enough. I said they had crucial knowledge about the cause of the problem withheld from them, and that is true. Had they had said knowledge [which is what I propose they be given for an alternate timeline to spawn] they could very well have defeated the Final Days.

And IMHO? They deserved better than what they got. They deserved an alternate timeline in which they got to live.

[Yuella]

Venat did tell them how to beat the Final Days in that lengthy cutscene

---
Venat
No, my friends. Suffering exists, and we cannot pretend otherwise.

No civilization, however great, could eliminate it. If we would live, we must accept it as our constant companion.
Let us not seek to forget this tragedy. Let us carry it in our hearts, that we may grow stronger and know true happiness.

Bitter Ancient
We can't accept it! We won't accept it! It will be ours again—a world free of sorrow!

Venat
No, it will not, for there has ever been sorrow. Mankind was but spared its biting sting for a time.

So please, open your eyes. To try and reclaim those lives we lost by sacrificing yet more isn't wisdom. It is weakness.
No paradise is without its shadows. If we cannot accept this truth and learn from our pain, then our plight shall be repeated.
---

Stopping that particular Final Days would not stop another Athena or Hermes from doing the same thing again 1000, 10000 or 100000 years in the future if they never learn how to accept sufferings. This is the main point of the story (the details don't matter). There's no such thing as a perfect society (otherwise people like Athena or Hermes would not exist) and they have to learn accepting imperfection as part of their society instead of declaring every imperfect things or beings a failure immediately. Maybe there's a slight flaw in the writing where they didn't hammer this point well enough but the main idea is solid.

[KrasieArk]

Zodiark was unfathomably huge as far as aether goes. Trying to do my own math here, if we just ballpark that the Ancient world and its denizens have twice as much aether in them as the current Source (I hoped the EW fisher stoyrline would shed light on this, but it doesn't), then it stands to reason that making a Zodiark now would require sacrificing the entire population

I don't get your reasoning here. If a quarter percentage of the remaining Ancient civilization of Etheryris was enough to not only summon Zodiark but also give 2 additional uses.....why would they need to sacrifice their entire population?

For that matter where are you pulling an Ancient being twice as much Aether compared to a source denizen? The people of the Source aren't Ancients they have a completely different Baseline. We know this because folks in the 1st aren't inherently weaker in Aether usage versus the source and the same for Void Sent in the 13th. The only real exception to this are Freaks of Nature like the WoL , Godbert , and his wife.

Zodiark was unfathomably huge
For 'ambient aether drain wouldn't have been as big a deal pre-sundering' to hold, the primals threatening it need to be of comparable power to Zodiark. And they're fractions of his full power; Ramuh was made with a stockpile of crystals, Alexander is powered by what's basically an aetheric vacuum cleaner. Eureka we don't know the origins of, but we do know it wasn't making things nearly as fast or as frequently as Zodiark. Hell, while he's not directly comparable, Eden was just one sundered Ascian jacked up with a bunch of light aether, and it still nearly scoured a whole shard clean.

Yeah, I genuinely think that if Alexander walking was a potential Calamity's worth of aether drain, Zodiark doing something as significant as putting out an eternal barrier probably would've been much worse.

And yet it the proposed 3rd sacrifice would've used something similar to Ambient Aether or the Star if you will for yet another use of Zodiark , Heck even the fully rejoined Source according to Emet could've done the same thing. This is a classic Power creep situation but point still remains Ancient world Ancient rules.

I think the Ancients deserve better than that. I can't stop you forcing them in the kiddie pool, but I can do my part by making this the last thing I say on it.

This is the bad faith Argument. We all know this was a controversial point in the EW MSQ. You yourself wanted to avoid "THAT SAME DAMNED ARGUEMENT" in your very first post in this thread. Being blunt this is your Nuclear method to kill or derail the topic.

[redheadturk]

Venat did tell them how to beat the Final Days in that lengthy cutscene

---
Venat
No, my friends. Suffering exists, and we cannot pretend otherwise.

No civilization, however great, could eliminate it. If we would live, we must accept it as our constant companion.
Let us not seek to forget this tragedy. Let us carry it in our hearts, that we may grow stronger and know true happiness.

Bitter Ancient
We can't accept it! We won't accept it! It will be ours again—a world free of sorrow!

Venat
No, it will not, for there has ever been sorrow. Mankind was but spared its biting sting for a time.

So please, open your eyes. To try and reclaim those lives we lost by sacrificing yet more isn't wisdom. It is weakness.
No paradise is without its shadows. If we cannot accept this truth and learn from our pain, then our plight shall be repeated.
---

Stopping that particular Final Days would not stop another Athena or Hermes from doing the same thing again 1000, 10000 or 100000 years in the future if they never learn how to accept sufferings. This is the main point of the story (the details don't matter). There's no such thing as a perfect society (otherwise people like Athena or Hermes would not exist) and they have to learn accepting imperfection as part of their society instead of declaring every imperfect things or beings a failure immediately. Maybe there's a slight flaw in the writing where they didn't hammer this point well enough but the main idea is solid.

Yuella, you are being disingenuous. This is not "showing the way", this is Venat pontificating at a group of random people traumatized by an extinction level event that could have been avoided if she had told one or two Convocation members the truth. I disagree with EW's point that a world that has done its best to mitigate suffering [which we in the real world should be doing anyway, ya know, leaving the world a better place than we found it] is a bad place to be, that is all. Also, I would certainly prefer a thousand or 10 thousand years of a relatively tranquil life in the Ancient world where people don't starve or have to worry about being prostituted out [Limsa and Ul'dah both] or murdered in wars [Garlemald]. So, yeah.

[ZavosEsperian]

Stopping that particular Final Days would not stop another Athena or Hermes from doing the same thing again 1000, 10000 or 100000 years in the future if they never learn how to accept sufferings. This is the main point of the story (the details don't matter).

While this may be true of EW, that does not mean they are beyond saving. If we are arguing the main point of EW story as a justification as to why you cannot save the Ancients, consider that nearly all, if not all, Final Fantasy franchise games have an overarching theme about overcoming impossible challenges and odds in order to defy fate and becoming the person who shapes their own fate. Look at nearly every game and this theme will be manifested somewhere inside of each of the main titles, some more overt than others.

This theme is extremely present in FFXIV and is much more pronounced in later expansions as the feats the WoL and companions accomplish become more and more distinguished to the point you end up saving the Universe as a whole by the end of EW. DT's feats are going to likely be considerably less grand (at least from initial views of it as it isn't out yet) compared to that of EW and ShB, but this overarching plot will likely still exist in some form or another.

With that said, the task of saving the Ancients, based on your words, fulfills the "impossibility" portion of the equation and saving the Ancients in an alternate timeline would be defying fate. From a theme's perspective, I would say saving the Ancients fits in with a classic Final Fantasy styled plot and does have considerable potential down the line to come up in a future expansion .

[Yuella]

While this may be true of EW, that does not mean they are beyond saving. If we are arguing the main point of EW story as a justification as to why you cannot save the Ancients, consider that nearly all, if not all, Final Fantasy franchise games have an overarching theme about overcoming impossible challenges and odds in order to defy fate and becoming the person who shapes their own fate. Look at nearly every game and this theme will be manifested somewhere inside of each of the main titles, some more overt than others.

This theme is extremely present in FFXIV and is much more pronounced in later expansions as the feats the WoL and companions accomplish become more and more distinguished to the point you end up saving the Universe as a whole by the end of EW. DT's feats are going to likely be considerably less grand (at least from initial views of it as it isn't out yet) compared to that of EW and ShB, but this overarching plot will likely still exist in some form or another.

With that said, the task of saving the Ancients, based on your words, fulfills the "impossibility" portion of the equation and saving the Ancients in an alternate timeline would be defying fate. From a theme's perspective, I would say saving the Ancients fits in with a classic Final Fantasy styled plot and does have considerable potential down the line to come up in a future expansion .

I can agree with that although I feel they need to experience something similar (doesn't have to lead to a sundering) that make them realize that they need to accept that imperfection exists as a part of society.

I do think we will revisit Azem and their action during the Final Days. The final short story shows Azem running off somewhere in a hurry, maybe they had a plan to save at least some of the Ancients that are not in Amaurot/Elpis.