Let's play a game: Save the Ancients!

[redheadturk]

Besides, if we leave behind a message in a bottle so to speak for them to find after we've gone back no harm, no foul. How can it strand us if we've already returned and the timeline is still in flux?

You seem to have forgotten this part of my quote. A message in a bottle [crystal in this case] would serve the purpose without stranding us, because the branching would occur after we had returned to our own time.

[Aravell]

I've been lurking and reading the thread and would like to point out some things that nobody seems to have mentioned yet.

There is one part in the sequence of events that nobody has really talked about: The time after Emet-Selch, Hythlodaeus and Hermes returned to Amaurot but before Hermes was appointed as Fandaniel. If Venat revealed the truth at that time, there would be more variables at play.

1) The previous Fandaniel would still be alive as he only returned to the star after Hermes was appointed, we can assume that he's at least as capable as Hermes.
2) There's still some time before The Final Days is meant to happen, giving them some time to plan countermeasures after going through Hermes' research about Meteion. We have to remember that it's canon that Hermes was the first one to notice the thinning of aether, nothing says that he's the only one capable of noticing.
3) If a countermeasure is implemented that doesn't involve the mass sacrifice of ancient lives, Azem would still be fully on board with the convocation.

These 3 variables from that point in time might cause quite a large difference in outcome.

Side note: I find it weird that people are in a speculation thread trying to shut down other people's speculation because their own headcanon says the characters wouldn't be up to the task. Why not just let people have their fun?

[Lyth]

Looking at the OP, it would appear that the primary topic of the thread is 'was it possible' for Amaurot to have been saved.

There are a few considerations with this. First, the thread topic is addressing the narrative sequence of events in the story we know, as opposed to theoretical future developments. That's what makes this a 'lore' discussion, rather than a 'headcanon' discussion.

It is possible, at the writers' discretion, to accomplish anything within the game universe. They set the rules, after all. The writers could, in theory, bring Haurchefant and Moenbryda back to life if they wanted to.

I can write up a solution for you right now, in fact. We petition Cid/Nidhana/Y'shtola/Gerolt for their aid in constructing a MacGuffin to save Amaurot. We go to their factory/lab/library/pub for further inspiration. They send us to Garlemald/Thavnair/Allag/Rowena to collect the necessary materials. A few patches later they provide us with the McGuffin. We activate the MacGuffin and Amaurot arrives in the present time with its original inhabitants, unharmed and in possession of their original powers. Everyone is happy, and we still haven't answered the original question.

Time travel hijinks and Tetsuya Nomura plotlines aside, I think the crux of the issue in this thread is whether Amaurot's destruction was a preventable event, taking into account the story that we were told. The writing makes it fairly clear that it unfortunately wasn't, which isn't all that surprising because it's incompatible with the primary game setting.

[Iscah]

Because for example Asphodelus didn't appear in the Sundered World until the WoL defeated Hephaistos even though time logic says it should've been there.

We didn't change the timeline and make Pandæmonium appear in the aetherial sea as if it had always been there; Athena deliberately made it appear there at that point by ripping a chunk out of Azys Lla, reshaping it into a copy of Pandæmonium and teleporting it into the place where it appeared.

[redheadturk]

Venat intentionally didn't tell them for one reason: She was idealogically driven. She wanted to fix what wasn't broken until Hermes got a hair up his arse in the first place. So even if she had known such was possible, she wouldn't have told them anyway because she believed they needed to change when really, they didn't.

[Cleretic]

Venat intentionally didn't tell them for one reason: She was idealogically driven. She wanted to fix what wasn't broken until Hermes got a hair up his arse in the first place. So even if she had known such was possible, she wouldn't have told them anyway because she believed they needed to change when really, they didn't.

Riiiiiiiiight. And Thaliak? Menphina, Azeyma? The Watcher? All those bright sparks, in highly respected positions in Ancient society, were they also 'ideologically driven', or were they somehow too dim to ask questions, but not so dim as to work on Venat's solution? Your image of your beloved Ancient society is one that can apparently get swayed pretty hard by what you seem to think is an ideologue with nothing but selfish delusions of power.

You really don't think the Ancients are better than that as a people?

EDIT: And this still doesn't explain why the unsundered weren't mad at her after learning the truth. Surely, if Venat were a selfish shallow ideologue, Emet would've been so mat at her for ruining the perfect future the Ancients could've had without her, instead of begrudgingly respecting that she made the right calls. Or is your image of Emet also too dim to realize, even if given perfect hindsight?

[redheadturk]

EDIT: And this still doesn't explain why the unsundered weren't mad at her after learning the truth. Surely, if Venat were a selfish shallow ideologue, Emet would've been so mat at her for ruining the perfect future the Ancients could've had without her, instead of begrudgingly respecting that she made the right calls. Or is your image of Emet also too dim to realize, even if given perfect hindsight?

Because the writers took both of the remaining Unsundered utterly out of character so Yoshi P could prop up his waifu because he could not deal with her looking bad. In a real life situation not tainted by dev fiat they would have been furious.

When it comes to the topic of the Ancients you absolutely are. However are we just going to ignore that all your examples happen in a Sundered World (AKA a Shard of 7/13ths) and in the Unsundered world we are playing by a different set of rules? Ancients don't have the restrictions in Aether like the Sundered.

In our timeline after the initial Final days killed a good portion of the Star and the Ancient people. Following that with an ever smaller population pool they managed to get more uses out of Zodiark with just their sacrifices alone no Ambient Aether required. So unless my math ain't mathing anymore I don't see why they wouldn't have an issue taking Aether from a much larger population of Ancients without requiring their bodies and souls. Call it an Aether Blood drive and take a small bit from the Star symbolism and what not.

Also your doing it again in response to Redheadturk. Bad faith arguments Tsk tsk



Then allow me to elaborate and please correct me if I'm veering into the realm of Head cannon. In the case of Graha Tia being unable to return to the Alternate 8UC timeline I've always been lead to believe he became stranded because of the appearance of The CT in the First. This event so dramatic fundamentally changed the course of history that it brought us to our current time line.

My logic here is if lets say the WoL leaves some Hypothetical form of irrefutable proof that fundamentally changes the history of that world wouldn't they be stuck the same way as Graha?

Not if they are already back in their own time. Can't strand what's not there, and the congruence deals with the hypothetical spanner in the works nicely because we would only be traveling back for fates/etc along our own timeline, not the altered one. As to G'raha, big difference there [and why he got stranded] is the measures he had to take to correct the timeline dealt with much more than just information. He had to be there with his team for 100 years and tie himself to the tower to effect the necessary change. All we have to do is leave some info behind before we go back to our own time.

[Xeronia]

Riiiiiiiiight. And Thaliak? Menphina, Azeyma? The Watcher? All those bright sparks, in highly respected positions in Ancient society, were they also 'ideologically driven', or were they somehow too dim to ask questions, but not so dim as to work on Venat's solution? Your image of your beloved Ancient society is one that can apparently get swayed pretty hard by what you seem to think is an ideologue with nothing but selfish delusions of power.

You really don't think the Ancients are better than that as a people?

EDIT: And this still doesn't explain why the unsundered weren't mad at her after learning the truth. Surely, if Venat were a selfish shallow ideologue, Emet would've been so mat at her for ruining the perfect future the Ancients could've had without her, instead of begrudgingly respecting that she made the right calls. Or is your image of Emet also too dim to realize, even if given perfect hindsight?

I had to look for the quest as I was almost certain The Watcher stated none of them knew her intentions and sure enough he did in the level 84 quest Heart of the Matter(https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/L..._of_the_Matter):

The Watcher:
That flower... How came it into your possession?
How very like Her.
Guided by its light, you may come to know Her true intentions. Intentions which remain a mystery even to us.
In our time, we called it "Elpis"... You would do well to remember the name.

That to me implies none of her followers knew the truth. Apologies I have been lurking in this topic for quite some time and wanted to just note this.

Edit: If you can provide anything to counter this I will gladly take it but it has been my impression she never told her followers the truth of the matter.

Edit again: I knew I saw this elsewhere, the short story A Friendship of Record also backs she didn't tell them the truth.

"Unable to find the words, the archivist retreated into ritual. He held out a crystal—as he had countless times before—upon which was stored the last chapter of cosmological wisdom Venat had sought. Though she had spoken of its importance, he suspected she withheld the entire truth. Of her glimpse into the future, she had offered precious little."

[KrasieArk]

I'm not 'bad faith arguing', and in jumping in with that right away you're clearly showing that you're not really coming into this in good faith yourself; you just want to come in with a cheap gotcha. But I can tell you why this is, at best, a bad idea:
.

When it comes to the topic of the Ancients you absolutely are. However are we just going to ignore that all your examples happen in a Sundered World (AKA a Shard of 7/13ths) and in the Unsundered world we are playing by a different set of rules? Ancients don't have the restrictions in Aether like the Sundered.

In our timeline after the initial Final days killed a good portion of the Star and the Ancient people. Following that with an ever smaller population pool they managed to get more uses out of Zodiark with just their sacrifices alone no Ambient Aether required. So unless my math ain't mathing anymore I don't see why they wouldn't have an issue taking Aether from a much larger population of Ancients without requiring their bodies and souls. Call it an Aether Blood drive and take a small bit from the Star symbolism and what not.

Also your doing it again in response to Redheadturk. Bad faith arguments Tsk tsk

Once the congruence has happened, there is really no worry of us getting stuck even if we do happen to be there running fates/cleaning up the monster prison/etc when it happens.

Then allow me to elaborate and please correct me if I'm veering into the realm of Head cannon. In the case of Graha Tia being unable to return to the Alternate 8UC timeline I've always been lead to believe he became stranded because of the appearance of The CT in the First. This event so dramatic fundamentally changed the course of history that it brought us to our current time line.

My logic here is if lets say the WoL leaves some Hypothetical form of irrefutable proof that fundamentally changes the history of that world wouldn't they be stuck the same way as Graha?

[KrasieArk]

We didn't change the timeline and make Pandæmonium appear in the aetherial sea as if it had always been there; Athena deliberately made it appear there at that point by ripping a chunk out of Azys Lla, reshaping it into a copy of Pandæmonium and teleporting it into the place where it appeared.

Ah gotcha Its been a while so I probably memory holed this Thank you for the clarification.