XIV EW Job-Gameplay is Terrible... Why?

[Quuoooote]

It's a skill to press 1-2-3? kek

I see this sentiment thrown out a lot, but yes, the general idea is supposed to be that maintaining the correct rotation while focusing on Extreme/Savage/Ultimate mechanics is a skill. If someone is capable of pressing their buttons perfectly even while they're being overwhelmed by unfamiliar mechanics they're just seeing for the first time and/or progging, that should indicate a level of muscle memory/job mastery that can only be attributed to player skill. Now, in Endwalker the focus has definitely shifted away from job complexity into mechanics dancing, so people take the combo gameplay for granted because of how easy it is to execute. But you can probably imagine a world (maybe in previous expansions, even!) where combos are more involved, or the rotation is harder with a heavy focus on oGCD management, or you have more individual responsibilities to juggle on your job (TP and MP management say hello) and more easily picture how even a 1-2-3 combo provides value in creating difficulty that allows for player skill to be expressed. At the end of the day, as minuscule as it is, even a 1-2-3 combo creates more of a skill floor and fail state than mindlessly pressing 1-1-1 over and over.

To tie this in to the topic of the thread, it's been a massive failing on Endwalker's part to shift all of the intricacies of combat into the mechanics dancing while leaving the players with nothing interesting to do. A lot of jobs can basically sleep through the majority of their rotation, because if it's not the burst window, you can bet they're doing bland 1-2-3 filler with maybe an occasional oGCD to dump gauge when at risk of overcapping. And that leads to the sentiment we have now, that "1-2-3 combos are so boring and bland and skill-less, we're better off making them into auto-combos!". Did people forget that healers have been tearing their hair out since Stormblood ended because they've been reduced to 1-1-1-1 gameplay for two entire expansions now? The solution is to move in the opposite direction: make jobs more involved and developed, give them more things to do, and the focus will be alleviated from the extremely barebones 1-2-3 combo gameplay we have going for us right now. Give players a skill ceiling that takes real time and effort to achieve, something to strive for, and people will actually want to engage with the gameplay to earn that mastery — that's hundreds of hours of content right there that EW is severely lacking because of how simplified the core gameplay has become.

[strawberrycake]

Did people forget that healers have been tearing their hair out since Stormblood ended because they've been reduced to 1-1-1-1 gameplay for two entire expansions now? The solution is to move in the opposite direction: make jobs more involved and developed, give them more things to do, and the focus will be alleviated from the extremely barebones 1-2-3 combo gameplay we have going for us right now. Give players a skill ceiling that takes real time and effort to achieve, something to strive for, and people will actually want to engage with the gameplay to earn that mastery — that's hundreds of hours of content right there that EW is severely lacking because of how simplified the core gameplay has become.

All this.

It's a skill to press 1-2-3? kek

I have also absolutely no idea what the rest of your argument has to do with what we were talking about (Math? 2 min meta? What?).

It's why the 2 min meta was bought up, it's why Savage was bought up. Healers are the exact reason why combo consolidation would never work and why the 2 min meta is INTRINSIC to this dicussion. Prior to it's existence, in ShB and SB, we had multiple burst windows to break up only pressing 1-2-3. And because of that It was and still is a skill so many have mastered to do while in content.

Sadly jobs like BRD, MCH and what not have been dumbed down to being near where healers are and healers are BEGGING to have better kits. It's why I said that the current state of the combo system is a symptom of the 2 min meta, the combo system is fine, the game needs to be better.

Like you honestly can't talk about the state of combat without the 2 min meta being bought up.

[Colt47]

All this.



It's why the 2 min meta was bought up, it's why Savage was bought up. Healers are the exact reason why combo consolidation would never work and why the 2 min meta is INTRINSIC to this dicussion. Prior to it's existence, in ShB and SB, we had multiple burst windows to break up only pressing 1-2-3. And because of that It was and still is a skill so many have mastered to do while in content.

Sadly jobs like BRD, MCH and what not have been dumbed down to being near where healers are and healers are BEGGING to have better kits. It's why I said that the current state of the combo system is a symptom of the 2 min meta, the combo system is fine, the game needs to be better.

Like you honestly can't talk about the state of combat without the 2 min meta being bought up.

And I'm sure one of the reasons why they even did the job simplification was to make it easier to jump between jobs during the leveling process and possibly end game groups. However, while the changes might help jump between jobs when leveling up it certainly doesn't do anything for end-game, where people spend the vast majority of their hours right now and in the future. It mostly comes down to getting muscle memory and intuitively knowing when to use skills, since people have to pay attention to the fights due to the puzzle mechanics. 2 minute meta simplifies learning it initially but it changes nothing involving the practice time needed, since each job still has a unique rotation.

[strawberrycake]

And I'm sure one of the reasons why they even did the job simplification was to make it easier to jump between jobs during the leveling process and possibly end game groups. However, while the changes might help jump between jobs when leveling up it certainly doesn't do anything for end-game, where people spend the vast majority of their hours right now and in the future. It mostly comes down to getting muscle memory and intuitively knowing when to use skills, since people have to pay attention to the fights due to the puzzle mechanics. 2 minute meta simplifies learning it initially but it changes nothing involving the practice time needed, since each job still has a unique rotation.

The issue with that is once you become an omni-tank/healer or a person who can do multiple DPS you see it all comes down to DPS at least maintaining their identities but tanks and healers struggling for those, with healers being the worst case. Tanks may have different rotations but tanking is very straight forward, once you've tanked one savage fight you've tanked them all.

The other issue with the 2 min meta is the case of it's damage multiplier, one mess up turns into a wipe p easily and it's not fun given how much some raidiers get the jitters during prog or when they're in enviornments where they aren't comfy, see PF. Back in tier 1 during prog for P4 me messing up a hyosho on NIN could possibly mean a wipe on P1, this is case ofc was due to me having a lot of baby raiders I was teaching that tier and they were still getting use to the buff alignment of the meta. But that fact that me missing that attack once within then entirety of phase 1 was the difference between seeing phase 2 or wiping is sad.

Many other cases exist and the pro's don;t out do the con's of our current format. And I know this is easier for them to dev content with, but it's also easier to dev content by setting up more direct feed back loops with raiders who do all your raid content and can gauge where the skill ceiling and flood needs to be while also helping with creating more intuitive content for none raiders given they know the combat of the game in and out.

And if any of this sounds like babble idm explaining more.

[Raikai]

And I'm sure one of the reasons why they even did the job simplification was to make it easier to jump between jobs during the leveling process and possibly end game groups. However, while the changes might help jump between jobs when leveling up it certainly doesn't do anything for end-game, where people spend the vast majority of their hours right now and in the future. It mostly comes down to getting muscle memory and intuitively knowing when to use skills, since people have to pay attention to the fights due to the puzzle mechanics. 2 minute meta simplifies learning it initially but it changes nothing involving the practice time needed, since each job still has a unique rotation.

Honestly any kind of job change they did under the pretense of "make it easier to jump between jobs during the leveling process" is for nothing, because what's expected to be high-end gameplay for dpsers is very distinct from the variation of your job during leveling. RPR is really a recent egregious example of this, as well as BLM. Leveling literally does the bare minimum in regards of helping a sprout with their job at level cap.

[Absurdity]

Honestly any kind of job change they did under the pretense of "make it easier to jump between jobs during the leveling process" is for nothing, because what's expected to be high-end gameplay for dpsers is very distinct from the variation of your job during leveling. RPR is really a recent egregious example of this, as well as BLM. Leveling literally does the bare minimum in regards of helping a sprout with their job at level cap.

Even if it was meant to make it easier to switch between jobs at endgame, the idea is fundamentally flawed. Slowly turning all jobs into the same grey slop certainly makes it easier to flex, because they're all equally unsatisfying.
You just end up going through all jobs in an attempt to squeeze blood out of a stone...or engaging gameplay out of bland mush.

[Valence]

I see this sentiment thrown out a lot, but yes, the general idea is supposed to be that maintaining the correct rotation while focusing on Extreme/Savage/Ultimate mechanics is a skill. If someone is capable of pressing their buttons perfectly even while they're being overwhelmed by unfamiliar mechanics they're just seeing for the first time and/or progging, that should indicate a level of muscle memory/job mastery that can only be attributed to player skill. Now, in Endwalker the focus has definitely shifted away from job complexity into mechanics dancing, so people take the combo gameplay for granted because of how easy it is to execute. But you can probably imagine a world (maybe in previous expansions, even!) where combos are more involved, or the rotation is harder with a heavy focus on oGCD management, or you have more individual responsibilities to juggle on your job (TP and MP management say hello) and more easily picture how even a 1-2-3 combo provides value in creating difficulty that allows for player skill to be expressed. At the end of the day, as minuscule as it is, even a 1-2-3 combo creates more of a skill floor and fail state than mindlessly pressing 1-1-1 over and over.

To tie this in to the topic of the thread, it's been a massive failing on Endwalker's part to shift all of the intricacies of combat into the mechanics dancing while leaving the players with nothing interesting to do. A lot of jobs can basically sleep through the majority of their rotation, because if it's not the burst window, you can bet they're doing bland 1-2-3 filler with maybe an occasional oGCD to dump gauge when at risk of overcapping. And that leads to the sentiment we have now, that "1-2-3 combos are so boring and bland and skill-less, we're better off making them into auto-combos!". Did people forget that healers have been tearing their hair out since Stormblood ended because they've been reduced to 1-1-1-1 gameplay for two entire expansions now? The solution is to move in the opposite direction: make jobs more involved and developed, give them more things to do, and the focus will be alleviated from the extremely barebones 1-2-3 combo gameplay we have going for us right now. Give players a skill ceiling that takes real time and effort to achieve, something to strive for, and people will actually want to engage with the gameplay to earn that mastery — that's hundreds of hours of content right there that EW is severely lacking because of how simplified the core gameplay has become.

I only stated that there is very little difference between 1-1-1 and 1-2-3. If people feel differently, then it's their right to do so, after all it's subjective. To me in the grander scheme of things it's tomato and tomato. If we were talking about branching or proccing combos though, I'd be more inclined to agree, because it suddenly brings options and choice.

On healers, they have been tearing their hair out because they've lost dots and attack options, not because they've lost a 1-2-3 combo... I don't even know why you're making that comparison, it doesn't make any logical sense. Healers have literally nothing to do with combos at all because healers have never had any combo to begin with. Their intricacies lied elsewhere (dots mostly, energy drain, and cleric stance in HW if we want to be pedantic about it). But if the only basis for comparison is spamming 1-1-1, then I guess it's a difference of perception because to me it's not very different from spamming 1-2-3.

I am however utterly confused why you keep hammering to me that job should be made more intricate because it's literally what I've been defending alongside everybody here since the start. Maybe you haven't read the whole thread, but I truly do. I just don't think that basic 1-2-3 combos bring anything of value in that direction though, and I actually find them harmful to it all. If they had kept all branching combos and proccing combos on half the jobs that lost them however, I wouldn't be making any criticism against them, and I wouldn't be pushing for a combo compression to make more room for other interesting abilities, but alas, that's where we are right now. They could also bring back the branches and procs though (at the cost of hotbar space), I wouldn't mind either.

YEah you're either a troll or missing the point.

It's why the 2 min meta was bought up, it's why Savage was bought up. Healers are the exact reason why combo consolidation would never work and why the 2 min meta is INTRINSIC to this dicussion. Prior to it's existence, in ShB and SB, we had multiple burst windows to break up only pressing 1-2-3. And because of that It was and still is a skill so many have mastered to do while in content.

Sadly jobs like BRD, MCH and what not have been dumbed down to being near where healers are and healers are BEGGING to have better kits. It's why I said that the current state of the combo system is a symptom of the 2 min meta, the combo system is fine, the game needs to be better.

Like you honestly can't talk about the state of combat without the 2 min meta being bought up.

As said above, healers have nothing to do with any of this as they do not rely on combos and have never done. Healers are another problem, and I have trouble understanding how you can even attempt to make such a comparison. It holds no logical sense whatsoever.

Can't say I agree with you on the difficulty or skill of pressing 1-2-3 with different burst metas anyway. 60s is still insanely long and imo you're just being extra disingenuous with this argument. I don't see what combos have to do with a different burst meta. And actually, I can talk of the state of combat without bringing up the 2min meta, because not everything revolves around it by far. People make a big fuss about it, but it's one the lesser issues of the whole battle system. I don't like it more than you do, but you're literally being obsessed by the tip of the iceberg at best.

I do not however disagree with the fact that rphys has been dumbed down to ridiculous levels, especially MCH, and by the way, MCH was already butchered to a basic 1-2-3 combo in ShB, and it was still as unskillful and bland as it is today in EW to play, no matter the burst meta.

[CelestiCer]

I only stated that there is very little difference between 1-1-1 and 1-2-3. If people feel differently, then it's their right to do so, after all it's subjective. To me in the grander scheme of things it's tomato and tomato. If we were talking about branching or proccing combos though, I'd be more inclined to agree, because it suddenly brings options and choice. ( snip )

Difficulty is indeed Subjective. After simulating the hypothetical compressed rotation for Samurai? It isn't harder or easier, but it feels terrible no matter how much more ( theoratically ) functional its supposed to be. I'd imagine it also homogenizes Job's further by copy pasting Combo Compression throughout our Roster of Jobs. Square could indeed make Jobs more intuitive with the space created through Combo Compression... Then again Square could have done this without Combo Compression, it is just never promised when we suggest to give up anything or when something is removed if we learned from History be it from Healers, to Melee, to w/e Square has done to MCH in SHB.

Using the argument of something being to easy and there for meaningless reminds me of that overused phrase... " It's just a button you press every-time ". Then again... in the grand scheme of things? we press every button every-time, and then we can argue everything away if we deem a button or feature to easy to execute. Look at my Job... 1/5th of my Gameplay is now spamming the same button over and over and that's just Samurai. Personally? I don't like this idea to be copy pasted of bashing the same button so frequently across my Kit even if the difficulty doesn't increase or not. We can look at healers on what they lost, which is the resemblance people make that we should learn from...

- Suggest to give up more in the hopes Square does something with it? Or...
- Suggest to give up nothing until Square give us something back first?

As for MCH specifically? I can't even recall how much they are hurting for hotbar-space compared to other Jobs to need something like Combo Compression. In my case? I can consolidate/fuse/merge at least 4 buttons on my Job while keeping my Gameplay / Rotation entirely the same before needing Combo Compression as the 1st go to solution so that Square can add... Well probably nothing again for 2 years i.e the last time they removed something.

At least we can agree that we want Job-Gameplay to improve, perhaps in different ways then we might agree. So... here's to hoping, mhm.

[Valence]

Difficulty is indeed Subjective. After simulating the hypothetical compressed rotation for Samurai? It isn't harder or easier, but it feels terrible no matter how much more ( theoratically ) functional its supposed to be. I'd imagine it also homogenizes Job's further by copy pasting Combo Compression throughout our Roster of Jobs. Square could indeed make Jobs more intuitive with the space created through Combo Compression... Then again Square could have done this without Combo Compression, it is just never promised when we suggest to give up anything or when something is removed if we learned from History be it from Healers, to Melee, to w/e Square has done to MCH in SHB.

Using the argument of something being to easy and there for meaningless reminds me of that overused phrase... " It's just a button you press every-time ". Then again... in the grand scheme of things? we press every button every-time, and then we can argue everything away if we deem a button or feature to easy to execute. Look at my Job... 1/5th of my Gameplay is now spamming the same button over and over and that's just Samurai. Personally? I don't like this idea to be copy pasted of bashing the same button so frequently across my Kit even if the difficulty doesn't increase or not. We can look at healers on what they lost, which is the resemblance people make that we should learn from...

- Suggest to give up more in the hopes Square does something with it? Or...
- Suggest to give up nothing until Square give us something back first?

As for MCH specifically? I can't even recall how much they are hurting for hotbar-space compared to other Jobs to need something like Combo Compression. In my case? I can consolidate/fuse/merge at least 4 buttons on my Job while keeping my Gameplay / Rotation entirely the same before needing Combo Compression as the 1st go to solution so that Square can add... Well probably nothing again for 2 years i.e the last time they removed something.

At least we can agree that we want Job-Gameplay to improve, perhaps in different ways then we might agree. So... here's to hoping, mhm.

Well of course if we take SE's track record in the past couple of expansions and start making predictions, I'd also be extremely worried about what they could do if they compressed combos (aka, nothing in return). There is a clear divide between what I think is sane and logical into what could open possibilities, and what I expect SE to actually do. If anything, it's too depressing to think about because what's interesting has been removed already. I'm happy that some people still find meaning into pressing 1-2-3 combos, but I don't.

Also by the way, Samurai is not a 1-2-3 combo job, it's a branching combo job that has still kept this as a core of its toolkit, and it's completely not comparable to a 1-2-3 combo. It's the bare minimum of what every melee job used to have to play with.

Since you mention MCH on the other hand, there is literally nothing left to salvage on that job. It has a 1-2-3 combo filler that serves no purpose besides keeping you busy pressing the same loop until the next carpal tunnel hypercharge. MCH still has a lot of room left on hotbars for the very reason that ShB rework left it so barebones that 2 bars were enough to fit everything... Until they added chainsaw and brought back the wrench more recently. This on its own is telling of the sad state of the job considering not only there is a lot of room left, but the base combo could be compressed and we wouldn't even be losing anything... We would actually go back to a 2 hotbar job because that's essentially what the 1-2-3 combo is hiding.

[CelestiCer]

Also by the way, Samurai is not a 1-2-3 combo job, it's a branching combo job that has still kept this as a core of its toolkit, and it's completely not comparable to a 1-2-3 combo. It's the bare minimum of what every melee job used to have to play with.

Oh ya you don't have to tell me. Some have suggested the PvP direction of Samurai to consolidate everything into a 1-1-1 onto Samurai PvE. Close friends also suggested this and you'll have to carefully read the suggestion...

- Delete Hakaze Jinpu Shifu
- Gekko Kasha Yukikaze is the new 1-2-3
- Then compress that into 1-1-1

Excessive pruning to make room for essentially zero suggestions as well with the notion that I would love it? because I get to cast Midare more, oh and speaking of Casting? then the suggestion to remove my Cast Times i.e Iaijutsu including yes my Midare... I am not joking, like I am not making this up... I hope you reading this Yona, this idea is stupid.

Even the other suggestion? to consolidate
- Jinpu turning into Gekko
- Shifu into Kasha
- Hakaze into Yukikaze

Turning 123-145-16 into 122-133-11 does make space, but it feels terrible. Probably cause I am fighting muscle memory. It functionally does make space for... there it is again, a big exceptionally large " if " to something new, mhm.