Cure and it's Equivalents need to be axed

[Colt47]

I've seen people stack medica 2 and regen for the sole purpose of buffering the tank during wall pulls in most of the expert dungeons. It's one of those things that sounds like a good idea because hypothetically the tank is going to take hits when the mobs surround him and therefore the ticks would heal, but it completely misses the fact that half the healing from the spell is immediate and the other half is the regeneration. It's not the same kind of deal that they get with the Regen where all the healing is from the regeneration and therefore is delayed.

The other problem with medica 2 is that the regeneration doesn't last that long and most likely the tank is going to have their own rotation either applying mitigation, self healing, a shield, or some mix of the three. So truth be told a whm should never use medica 2 unless they are healing the entire group in response to an AOE attack, and they should also only use medica 2 if the group is going to be too spread out for the cure III as both are 0 MP to cast thanks to the extra skill they got to make the next cast cost nothing.

The original design for medica 2 was built for a game where they didn't precisely build the fights out and was supposed to be a compromise for greater range, but in the new version of the game it now serves to mostly counter bleed effects on the group and to buy time to use something else to heal the group. Cure and Cure II were also from a time when MP and TP were primary resources and casters were expected to take time to actually heal someone and it was more firehose healing. Cure I was the efficient heal that was combo'ed with regen, and Cure II was for emergency casts and get a free cast proc to assist the WHM keeping the main tank up. Additionally, Aero I and Aero II were two completely different spells and Aero II was an AOE dot, not just an upgraded Aero I.

They definitely need a new naming convention for the spells in this game but I doubt they are going to redo it. BLM has the problem of Thunder I and Thunder III being single target and Thunder II and Thunder IV being AOEs, yet Fire I, Fire III, and Fire IV are single target with Fire II being multi-target, and Blizzard I, III, and IV being single target while Blizzard II is an AOE.
WHM has Cure I and Cure II being single target and serving different purposes early game, then Cure I becomes redundant after MP management improves and Cure II becomes a strict upgrade, while Cure III is a targeted AOE and anyone who isn't familiar with FFXIV would logically assume it is an upgrade to Cure II, which it isn't. And this isn't even going into the problem of having the Lilies added later on with the caster only getting the single target lily and no payoff for ages.

WHM isn't even playing the same game at sub 50 that the post 50 WHM is playing, and that goes for a LOT of the jobs.

It's pretty impressive what the devs have done to change things and try to get these ancient relics working with the current game.

[Ayche]

Removing Diagnosis would complicate things.

But I just think the idea of the thread is kinda funny. Cmon, a healer has to have a single target GDC heal. It is the most basic of healing tools, no matter how non-optimal it might be.
It is like ranged attacks on tanks. Or BLM's Fire 1.

[Troxbark]

I've seen people stack medica 2 and regen for the sole purpose of buffering the tank during wall pulls in most of the expert dungeons. It's one of those things that sounds like a good idea because hypothetically the tank is going to take hits when the mobs surround him and therefore the ticks would heal, but it completely misses the fact that half the healing from the spell is immediate and the other half is the regeneration. It's not the same kind of deal that they get with the Regen where all the healing is from the regeneration and therefore is delayed.

The other problem with medica 2 is that the regeneration doesn't last that long and most likely the tank is going to have their own rotation either applying mitigation, self healing, a shield, or some mix of the three. So truth be told a whm should never use medica 2 unless they are healing the entire group in response to an AOE attack, and they should also only use medica 2 if the group is going to be too spread out for the cure III as both are 0 MP to cast thanks to the extra skill they got to make the next cast cost nothing.

Squishy tanks in particular, is nice to have a medica 2 dot on them. That extra regen gives you more breathing room anyway you spin it. I don't see an issue when it's breaking up the cure 2 spam to squeeze more dps in.

Cure 3 is also overkill and it's limited range makes it ineffective compared to medica 2. You either haven't received enough dmg to warrant a cure 3 or a member of your team is too far away to benefit from it. Medica 2 reigns supreme in almost all cases where a hard cast heal is needed.

[finalchlomega]

Removing Diagnosis would complicate things.

But I just think the idea of the thread is kinda funny. Cmon, a healer has to have a single target GDC heal. It is the most basic of healing tools, no matter how non-optimal it might be.
It is like ranged attacks on tanks. Or BLM's Fire 1.

Sage is admittedly a different beast altogether, but both White Mage and Astrologian, even Scholar when you get Aetherflow (because I am not naive enough to think that big pulls in Stone Vigil can be done without using Physick but the easy solution to that is to bring Lustrate down from level 45 to say level 40) all have two separate actions that are single target GCD heals. One is outright superior to the other, and renders the other practically obsolete.

[finalchlomega]

Squishy tanks in particular, is nice to have a medica 2 dot on them. That extra regen gives you more breathing room anyway you spin it. I don't see an issue when it's breaking up the cure 2 spam to squeeze more dps in.

Cure 3 is also overkill and it's limited range makes it ineffective compared to medica 2. You either haven't received enough dmg to warrant a cure 3 or a member of your team is too far away to benefit from it. Medica 2 reigns supreme in almost all cases where a hard cast heal is needed.

The only times I can see Medica II being worth more than Cure III is either when theres a bleed going out on the entire raid and you don't have Liturgy of the Bell, or your team physically cannot enter the needed range for Cure III, which recently did get a buff to its radius. Most of the time though your main AoE healing option is actually Afflatus Rapture because it is now DPS neutral (or a DPS gain under level 82 from what I understand).

However if you're needing to keep a squishy tank alive only Regen itself is going to help, by the time you've cast both Regen and Medica II the tank's either dead or invulning, and that's when you pull out the Cure II if you have no lillies. In fact you can actually use Liturgy of the Bell to your advantage in those cases simply because you can trigger it whenever you like now and it gives a 1000 potency heal provided you still have all 5 stacks. And that in itself is ignoring Assize, Tetragrammation and Benediction, plus you yourself adding Temperance if the tank is actually that squishy.

[Supersnow845]

The loosely stacks together for healing but not enough for cure 3 used to be the purview of medica 1, with cure 3’s niche for ultra specific so situations (like Garuda cleanses) and medica 2 more for DOT’s or long recovery from damage since medica 2 and cure 3 used to cost a mint in mana and generated disgusting agro that shroud of saints couldn’t account for

We are so far away from what these skills were actually designed around that we’ve reached the point where the kit is making its own skills redundant, like with WHM’s disgusting mana economy what even is the use of medica anymore since they increased cure 3’s range

WHM’s ARR skill kit is a mess

[ForsakenRoe]

The only times I can see Medica II being worth more than Cure III is either when theres a bleed going out on the entire raid and you don't have Liturgy of the Bell, or your team physically cannot enter the needed range for Cure III, which recently did get a buff to its radius. Most of the time though your main AoE healing option is actually Afflatus Rapture because it is now DPS neutral (or a DPS gain under level 82 from what I understand).

The main reason to use Medica 2 over Cure 3 is that Medica 2 is a total of 1000p, where Cure 3 is 600. It's moreso that Cure 3 struggles to maintain a usecase, as you're losing a GCD of damage for either of these tools. So the times you'd choose Cure 3 is 'you need instant burst healing and there's no time to wait for regen ticks, you have a surplus of spare mana (or a Thin Air), you can be relatively close to one another (10 yards)', and every tool SE adds to WHM encroaches on Cure 3's uses in some way. Liturgy, for example, changes 'multi hit stack mark' like Styx from 'this is a good time to do some Cure 3s' to 'this is a good time to throw down the Overheal Plant, and carry on spamming Glare'

Additionally, Rapture+PI is equal potency to Cure 3, with two heal instances, meaning that there's a higher chance for one part of the healing to crit, and it has 20y range compared to Cure 3's 10y range

[Colt47]

Squishy tanks in particular, is nice to have a medica 2 dot on them. That extra regen gives you more breathing room anyway you spin it. I don't see an issue when it's breaking up the cure 2 spam to squeeze more dps in.

Cure 3 is also overkill and it's limited range makes it ineffective compared to medica 2. You either haven't received enough dmg to warrant a cure 3 or a member of your team is too far away to benefit from it. Medica 2 reigns supreme in almost all cases where a hard cast heal is needed.

Medica II is hands down the best heal that WHM has but yes, there are times where you must use cure III. However, you likely are never going to see cure III outside of savage. A good example of cure III being used was during p8s p2 HC1 and HC2, because if people were not capped out it was very likely going to result in a wipe.

On the usage of Medica II in the current day: For current Endwalker the gear is so strong that our heals hit for truckloads and tanks are monsters, so there isn't a lot of need for medica II in expert roulette where people are mostly counting on maximizing the DPS. 24 man raids we got lily bell + Afflatus Rapture with Planery Indulgence + Asylum. Without any major bleed effects going off the medica II is sort of the last tool on the totem pole most of the time, though with how chaotic 24 man healing is, I could see people dropping a medica II just because they had to expend absolutely everything just to keep some person alive with 3 stacks of vuln.

[Mostly_Raxus]

you know you can just drag them off you bar if you like OP, i feel like i would cast nothing but cure one in a party with you just to hear your teeth grinding together.. <3

[Eastwall]

If se can remove kaiten, why can't they remove cure 1? That's something l would be interested to know