Can we get an idea on what to expect from the open world in version 2? (A bit long)

[DarthTaru]

Hyrist:

I think you should read my posts again if you think I was insulting you. There was evidently a miscommunication somewhere. I said I doubted you ever played in a linkshell that was capable of monopolization and so you wouldn't truly understand what the difference was between that linkshell and a linkshell that was nearly as capable but seldom got claim. I'll stand by that. I've been in both varieties of linkshells, #1's and #2's and I have first hand experience with precisely what the difference was and that difference was precisely what I said it was - motivation.

And I do believe that some of your stated reasons for not wanting open world HNMs are overly self centered.
You don't want open world HNMs because you don't want to camp them and because you don't want to compete for them and because all of this they shouldn't be in the game despite the fact that, in an endgame linkshell large enough and organized enough to routinely kill HNMs, you don't always have to be.

My HNM linkshell had plenty of "casual" players. That's why, as I've said before, I detest the buzz words "hardcore" and "casual" to define what people are. On these forums they seem to be code for "good player" and "bad player" and in XI that's exactly what we called them. There were plenty of people in my HNM linkshell that had full time jobs, families, and social lives. They also had Gaiters and e bodies.

So with that in mind I don't understand the above gripes one bit. They're completely alien to me. Normally when I hear these arguments coming from someone I chalk it up as nothing but bitter envy. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, though.

The strongest, most well geared BLM on my server was in the National guard and had to leave the game completely for weeks at a time for duty. Full time National Guard, wife, family, varied play times, and the envy of every BLM on the server.

"Hardcore" and "casual".
I honestly don't think these ridiculous terms have any real definition.

In the golden age of the HNM linkshell of which I was a part we were successful in open world because we were motivated, because we were organized, and because we were capable. A lot of things that you've said leads me to believe that you think somehow this is `unfair`.
When we lost #1 to the merger of two other linkshells who also happened to kick out all their dead weight we lost it because they were extremely motivated to dominate and many people in my linkshell weren't for various reasons.

I spent enough time in XI endgame linkshells to know what made them tick and what lead to success ("monopolization" as you call it) and the God's honest truth was that nothing was holding any player or any linkshell back in XI beyond the limitations they placed on themselves. That applies to this game as well. I'm sure it applies to every MMO, despite many of the have-nots believing otherwise, eager to blame "bots" and "unfairness" and whatever else people come up with for why the have nothing, couldn't claim, couldn't compete, couldn't kill, and couldn't attain best-in-slot gear pieces.

And just to correct you. When I used the word "prestige" I wasn't referring to my own. I was referring to that of the mobs. The biggest, baddest of them had it in a way the Dodore's and 8 hour repop mobs you envision never, ever will.
The Great Buffalo's of the world have to be farmed. The biggest, baddest, rarest of the HNMs in XI had to be conquered.

[Rokien]

Hyrist:

I think you should read my posts again if you think I was insulting you. There was evidently a miscommunication somewhere. I said I doubted you ever played in a linkshell that was capable of monopolization and so you wouldn't truly understand what the difference was between that linkshell and a linkshell that was nearly as capable but seldom got claim. I'll stand by that. I've been in both varieties of linkshells, #1's and #2's and I have first hand experience with precisely what the difference was and that difference was precisely what I said it was - motivation.

And I do believe that some of your stated reasons for not wanting open world HNMs are overly self centered.
You don't want open world HNMs because you don't want to camp them and because you don't want to compete for them and because all of this they shouldn't be in the game despite the fact that, in an endgame linkshell large enough and organized enough to routinely kill HNMs, you don't always have to be.

My HNM linkshell had plenty of "casual" players. That's why, as I've said before, I detest the buzz words "hardcore" and "casual" to define what people are. On these forums they seem to be code for "good player" and "bad player" and in XI that's exactly what we called them. There were plenty of people in my HNM linkshell that had full time jobs, families, and social lives. They also had Gaiters and e bodies.

So with that in mind I don't understand the above gripes one bit. They're completely alien to me. Normally when I hear these arguments coming from someone I chalk it up as nothing but bitter envy. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, though.

The strongest, most well geared BLM on my server was in the National guard and had to leave the game completely for weeks at a time for duty. Full time National Guard, wife, family, varied play times, and the envy of every BLM on the server.

"Hardcore" and "casual".
I honestly don't think these ridiculous terms have any real definition.

In the golden age of the HNM linkshell of which I was a part we were successful in open world because we were motivated, because we were organized, and because we were capable. A lot of things that you've said leads me to believe that you think somehow this is `unfair`.
When we lost #1 to the merger of two other linkshells who also happened to kick out all their dead weight we lost it because they were extremely motivated to dominate and many people in my linkshell weren't for various reasons.

I spent enough time in XI endgame linkshells to know what made them tick and what lead to success ("monopolization" as you call it) and the God's honest truth was that nothing was holding any player or any linkshell back in XI beyond the limitations they placed on themselves. That applies to this game as well. I'm sure it applies to every MMO, despite many of the have-nots believing otherwise, eager to blame "bots" and "unfairness" and whatever else people come up with for why the have nothing, couldn't claim, couldn't compete, couldn't kill, and couldn't attain best-in-slot gear pieces.

And just to correct you. When I used the word "prestige" I wasn't referring to my own. I was referring to that of the mobs. The biggest, baddest of them had it in a way the Dodore's and 8 hour repop mobs you envision never, ever will.
The Great Buffalo's of the world have to be farmed. The biggest, baddest, rarest of the HNMs in XI had to be conquered.

Very well put my friend.

[Hyrist]

There definatly have been miscommunications, but still you stand by issues I've already countered and addressed.

Hyrist:
I have first hand experience with precisely what the difference was and that difference was precisely what I said it was - motivation.

I've had both hardcore and casual experience both in and without of FFXI. (Was a top Guild member in Aion for a while. EQ beforehand.) And I understand what you are saying about motivation being a major factor here. But that factor cannot be be isolated as the primary reason. Your experience may vary. But to make a metaphoric statement there is only so many times you can get kicked in the gut before the fight is kicked out of you.

Morale, is the term I am looking for. You cannot maintain motivation in a hostile environment with low morale.

And I do believe that some of your stated reasons for not wanting open world HNMs are overly self centered.
You don't want open world HNMs because you don't want to camp them and because you don't want to compete for them and because all of this they shouldn't be in the game despite the fact that, in an endgame linkshell large enough and organized enough to routinely kill HNMs, you don't always have to be.

Mmm. There you go again with that accusatory tone. I'm not sure you're aware of it, but you're doing it.

No, not me. It's not that I don't want to camp. I'm just as content leaving that entire branch of the game alone in FFXIV as I was after I got burned in both FFXI and Aion. (Aion was worse, in some cases, btw.) My acertion is that nobody should have to go through that. That it appeals to too narrow of a group without modifications to be productive content. And even your regulars for years on that complained over multiple issues that, in this game, should be addressed before implementation.

But to stress - this is an academical discussion. Where the true numbers lie as to what number desires what and what SE should go for ultimately should be in SEs hands to ask in a survey. Don't try to construed the argument. I can just easily say 'you' don't want any changes because 'you' have rose tinted views of being on top and 'you' want to impose your goals for prestige on the group and anything short won't be good for 'anyone'?

My argument isn't selfish it's my bias. I believe more open content will result in a healthier game. That does not mean you will always get claim every 8 hours just because it's spawned that frequently. That was just one idea among many that would provide a deeper, yet rich enviroment.

The Great Buffalo's of the world have to be farmed. The biggest, baddest, rarest of the HNMs in XI had to be conquered.

Ok, there's some issue here in communicating what means 'biggest, baddest'.

AV and PW were the biggest, baddest. They had to be conquered. The tier below, challenging that they were, still had to be farmed.

Fafnir, Nidhog, Tiamat, etc. these guy weren't the biggest and baddest. They were ultimately farmed like the rest. Hunted relentlessly for their drops, not their challenge. They were the prey of the strong, even though they ate the weak.

Dynamis Lord, Kirin when he first came out, Chariots when they came out. Odin, Bahamut These were guys that had to be Conquered in there day. Ground Kings? They were hard, yeah but they felt more like 'big game' than "Big Boss."

We've not touched very much on the concept of HQ spawns. And 8 hour HNM with an HQ that spawns perhaps only a few times a week isn't beyond my purview of good mechanics. It could function like AV on Jailor of Love does in that respect. (We can disagree that 8 hours isn't sufficiently long enough wait for you I'll stand by my idea that any more of rotating shifts or waiting around to do nothing during that time is a bad game mechanic, even in an MMO field, like how a 12 hour PW fight is a bad mechanic.)


We seem to be stuck on the tip of the iceburg when it comes to the depth of this subject matter.

Our difference in opinion shouldn't really matter. So long as SE keeps the player's interested we can debate buzzwords for years and it wouldn't matter a lick.



But I'm done bouncing the same topic back and forth on the same thing. It does nothing for the conversation. I'm not here to convince you, and I don't begrudge you your views. But I don't agree the HNM system should be left as it was conceived of in FFXI. This simply is not that game, it is its own - it should improve upon it.

Let's talk more about HNMs in general. Ground kings, stood around and waited to be pegged. Tiamat could appear in difference places. Ixion had to be chased down. Sandworm brought YOU to the fight once you found him. What are some more ways we could keep the hunting of these HNMs unique - barring the conversation of things like pop times. What sort of things in an open world fight you would like to see?

If I were to partake, I wouldn't mind the idea of an actual 'hunt'. You pursue your target, it fights, as it gets weaker, it's got a chance to bolt on you and you've got to chase it back down. Or have a monster make a tactical retreat to lead you into an ambush.

There is a lot that could be done to add to the excitement and depth of the HNM system.