Can we get an idea on what to expect from the open world in version 2? (A bit long)

[Hyrist]

All around, however, I've come to realize that you and I are mostly on the same side. I just don't think the need for developers to provide a constant stream of content is new, or modern. I also don't believe in the underlining implication of your writing, that somehow what made FFXI compelling (for me, evidently not for you) is something obsolete or superseded. And I don't think luck was a capital part of it.

R

I think perhaps you've got a differing opinion on what made FFXI compelling.

I'll be blunt. For me, the answer was commiseration. The game was grueling by many standards, FFXI players insulted WoW as casuals, even though it was a more successful game.

It wasn't any mechanic that made FFXI good, though I'll give compliments to the Job/Subjob system, and the capasity to level multiple jobs on a single character, something that was good to carry over to XIV. But put bluntly, many of the mechanics were really bad - people complained about them for the duration and SE was slow to fix anything. Expansions were strung along with empty filler (You must wait till JP midnight to start the next quest!) And even when you could go through content, it wasn't there until the next patch three months down the line.

And while there were some things that are just plain fun to do in the game, we're not touching on the more notorious issues here. Absolute Virtue, Pandemonium Warden, the Salvage Dupe scandal? Players weren't playing the game honestly and that speaks bad of the game mechanics. Too much was just drawn out in the wrong ways for the wrong reasons.

So it wasn't the nuts and bolts of the game that made it worthwhile, in my opinion. It was the people, it was the lore, it was the story. Players grunted through all the miserable parts of the game because they loved the world head and shoulders above its mechanics. And they enjoyed the company they kept. There are people still outside that Game that hold pride in their home nation (And for you other scrubs, it's Winfirst! Remember that!) I know my previous nation choice affected my decision in XIV.

That sort of attraction can be achieved regardless of the mechanics. And for many of us witnessing the fall of Meteor, that attachment to the world is already blooming.

So no, I don't believe luck was a capital part of FFXI's success either, but neither do I believe it's mechanics were without crippling flaws, flaws this game is most defiantly going to have to shed off if it wants a larger subscription base.

[Hyrist]

Darth Tartu,

if "me me me" is what you're getting out of the posts, then you need to re-read them. But let me address what's not blatantly insulting.

Firstly, I'm well aware of the diversity of content for different types of people. But you value your precious 'prestigue' too highly. You talk about me being self-centered about this, but of the two of us, I've got a far broader base which I am concerned for.

Ultimately, where I suspect our main disagreement arises from is in you seem to believe that all content needs to be at the ready and easily attainable and accessibly at all times. What an MMO needs is to have a good mix of content that is readily available and accessibly and plenty of things to keep people enjoying themselves every day with added content that isn't to break the routine.

If I felt that, I wouldn't be asking for claim cool-downs, now would I? I agree that there needs to be a good mix of content, but I don't believe there should be distinct 'prestige' system that values one content above others. Rather, the truly prestigious items would go to those who truly encompass the whole of adventuring - for example: The current requirements for Relic/AF Weapons.


Let me clarify my goals for you I wish to specifically:

1. Create mechanics that make the majority of the common FFXI exploits impossible, by utilizing many of the systems FFXI put into place in it's later years. For example: The idea to have a required item to claim a HNM? Came from Dark Ixion, which was a superior system than any of the ground kings, and it was exciting. I'm of the mind that the Primal System, from what little we've been given via interviews, is going to be very much like Sandworm. These were good approaches about the scene and the lore.

These systems weren't attainable at all times, but they did try to address many of the issues plaguing early HNMs.

2. The support of a positive themed environment to most if not all aspects of the game.
To take this further, this means toning down the passive-aggressive competition the early HNM scene was known for.
You stated it yourself, you never beat Absolute Virtue, you never beat Pandemonium Warden. But look at those systems a moment. Both were forced pop systems. In fact, the bulk of FFXI's NM systems past Kings is force poped. That didn't harm the rarity or prestige of the high end items on these. And if your LS had it in their desire to have a hand at it, you weren't forced to compete for even your chance.

I am not trying to destroy 'your 'content. I am taking concepts that have evolved from the past and trying to continue that course into the future. Academically, mind you. You're free to disagree with me, it's up to SE to decide what they do. You do not have to result to insults with me.

In this juncture of the discussion, I think you and I are beyond the point where any discussion of general viewpoints will be productive. So let's talk specifics.

How would you organize a HNM system in this game? How would you manage issues with:

Spawn Rate and Claims (Including loss of claim conditions.)
Drop Rate and Attendance
Content value and Power Creep (I can define Power Creep if you're unfamiliar with the term.)
Spontaneity vs Accessibility
Addressing Exploits.

Let's construct two systems, one with your ideals and one with mine. And take into consideration each other's concerns while doing so. With luck, both could be implemented or inspire similar systems and the game can appeal to a wider audience for it.

[Hyrist]

Hyrist did you play XI? If you did I want to ask you...if you saw someone with a D.Ring (came from kings) what did you think? VS what do you think when you see someone with an Ifrit weapon? If not then nvm hehe

I played FFXI since NA release up until shortly after Voidwatch came out - intermittently I should admit. I took breaks when life, or the game, got to the point where I couldn't justify paying for it.

To be flat honest, I've talked with many former FFXI players outside the game after we all quit and our experiences were different. However many of them openly confessed to cheating as well, yet they had a good time, not caring that it came at the expense of many others. (Not even touching Gear Swap and Windower.)

So when you talk about D.Ring, or any of the King Drops, I don't give it thought, intentionally. That was a field I avoided after finding out how suspect it was first hand. It after that it was irrelevant to me. It was how a person conducted themselves that mattered. It became a bad correlation, however, when I noticed that the more advanced someone's gear was, the more likely that person was going to be unpleasant. That wasn't always the case, but it happened often enough to give pause, and eventually become jaded by it. This was galvanized on how the Aht Urgan mentality prevented my Fiance and I from playing together in the same Merit party. (She was Whm, I was Rdm. We actually switched servers because of how poorly she got treated as a WHM.)

Now conversely in FFXIV, I look at someone walking around with weapons like Ifrits spear and I smile a bit. Not because 'oh look, you got lucky at the loot', but because they went through the experience of Ifrit, and the feeling of being rewarded after their trials. So far, fights in FFXIV at the very least feel more tense and interesting, so naturally the rewards are going to feel better by me.

I'll also take a note of their other gear they're wearing, see what they're settling with. (You'd be amazed at the number of AF Wielders with Primal weapons.) Doing so often shows me that I've spent my time on Armor rather than weapons, and that's a fair exchange to have.

My only miffed comment is how the weapon is now a bit obsolete before I got my hands on it. Though, I'll want one just for collection.

Overall, I'm more about people than loot. It's far easier to help a person gear up, then to try to change their attitude, so when I see rare weapons and armor, I'm usually not as impressed as others are - because I don't know their story. Loot gets me thinking about the experience of going through the necessary steps of getting it though. And I'm far more open minded about FFXIV's achievements than I am about FFXI. Except perhaps Garuda weapons with the BLM exploit.

I will look more fondly on my normal Quality Centurion's Sword from FFXI and my Joyeuse than any of the epic loot other people got out of that game - because it's more about the experience. I really do hope they make Weapon racks in 2.0

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Sorry for the triple post. I had a lot addressed to me here, and in order to prevent confused I wanted to break it up somehow.

[DarthTaru]

Hyrist:

I think you should read my posts again if you think I was insulting you. There was evidently a miscommunication somewhere. I said I doubted you ever played in a linkshell that was capable of monopolization and so you wouldn't truly understand what the difference was between that linkshell and a linkshell that was nearly as capable but seldom got claim. I'll stand by that. I've been in both varieties of linkshells, #1's and #2's and I have first hand experience with precisely what the difference was and that difference was precisely what I said it was - motivation.

And I do believe that some of your stated reasons for not wanting open world HNMs are overly self centered.
You don't want open world HNMs because you don't want to camp them and because you don't want to compete for them and because all of this they shouldn't be in the game despite the fact that, in an endgame linkshell large enough and organized enough to routinely kill HNMs, you don't always have to be.

My HNM linkshell had plenty of "casual" players. That's why, as I've said before, I detest the buzz words "hardcore" and "casual" to define what people are. On these forums they seem to be code for "good player" and "bad player" and in XI that's exactly what we called them. There were plenty of people in my HNM linkshell that had full time jobs, families, and social lives. They also had Gaiters and e bodies.

So with that in mind I don't understand the above gripes one bit. They're completely alien to me. Normally when I hear these arguments coming from someone I chalk it up as nothing but bitter envy. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, though.

The strongest, most well geared BLM on my server was in the National guard and had to leave the game completely for weeks at a time for duty. Full time National Guard, wife, family, varied play times, and the envy of every BLM on the server.

"Hardcore" and "casual".
I honestly don't think these ridiculous terms have any real definition.

In the golden age of the HNM linkshell of which I was a part we were successful in open world because we were motivated, because we were organized, and because we were capable. A lot of things that you've said leads me to believe that you think somehow this is `unfair`.
When we lost #1 to the merger of two other linkshells who also happened to kick out all their dead weight we lost it because they were extremely motivated to dominate and many people in my linkshell weren't for various reasons.

I spent enough time in XI endgame linkshells to know what made them tick and what lead to success ("monopolization" as you call it) and the God's honest truth was that nothing was holding any player or any linkshell back in XI beyond the limitations they placed on themselves. That applies to this game as well. I'm sure it applies to every MMO, despite many of the have-nots believing otherwise, eager to blame "bots" and "unfairness" and whatever else people come up with for why the have nothing, couldn't claim, couldn't compete, couldn't kill, and couldn't attain best-in-slot gear pieces.

And just to correct you. When I used the word "prestige" I wasn't referring to my own. I was referring to that of the mobs. The biggest, baddest of them had it in a way the Dodore's and 8 hour repop mobs you envision never, ever will.
The Great Buffalo's of the world have to be farmed. The biggest, baddest, rarest of the HNMs in XI had to be conquered.

[Rokien]

Hyrist:

I think you should read my posts again if you think I was insulting you. There was evidently a miscommunication somewhere. I said I doubted you ever played in a linkshell that was capable of monopolization and so you wouldn't truly understand what the difference was between that linkshell and a linkshell that was nearly as capable but seldom got claim. I'll stand by that. I've been in both varieties of linkshells, #1's and #2's and I have first hand experience with precisely what the difference was and that difference was precisely what I said it was - motivation.

And I do believe that some of your stated reasons for not wanting open world HNMs are overly self centered.
You don't want open world HNMs because you don't want to camp them and because you don't want to compete for them and because all of this they shouldn't be in the game despite the fact that, in an endgame linkshell large enough and organized enough to routinely kill HNMs, you don't always have to be.

My HNM linkshell had plenty of "casual" players. That's why, as I've said before, I detest the buzz words "hardcore" and "casual" to define what people are. On these forums they seem to be code for "good player" and "bad player" and in XI that's exactly what we called them. There were plenty of people in my HNM linkshell that had full time jobs, families, and social lives. They also had Gaiters and e bodies.

So with that in mind I don't understand the above gripes one bit. They're completely alien to me. Normally when I hear these arguments coming from someone I chalk it up as nothing but bitter envy. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, though.

The strongest, most well geared BLM on my server was in the National guard and had to leave the game completely for weeks at a time for duty. Full time National Guard, wife, family, varied play times, and the envy of every BLM on the server.

"Hardcore" and "casual".
I honestly don't think these ridiculous terms have any real definition.

In the golden age of the HNM linkshell of which I was a part we were successful in open world because we were motivated, because we were organized, and because we were capable. A lot of things that you've said leads me to believe that you think somehow this is `unfair`.
When we lost #1 to the merger of two other linkshells who also happened to kick out all their dead weight we lost it because they were extremely motivated to dominate and many people in my linkshell weren't for various reasons.

I spent enough time in XI endgame linkshells to know what made them tick and what lead to success ("monopolization" as you call it) and the God's honest truth was that nothing was holding any player or any linkshell back in XI beyond the limitations they placed on themselves. That applies to this game as well. I'm sure it applies to every MMO, despite many of the have-nots believing otherwise, eager to blame "bots" and "unfairness" and whatever else people come up with for why the have nothing, couldn't claim, couldn't compete, couldn't kill, and couldn't attain best-in-slot gear pieces.

And just to correct you. When I used the word "prestige" I wasn't referring to my own. I was referring to that of the mobs. The biggest, baddest of them had it in a way the Dodore's and 8 hour repop mobs you envision never, ever will.
The Great Buffalo's of the world have to be farmed. The biggest, baddest, rarest of the HNMs in XI had to be conquered.

Very well put my friend.

[Rokien]

I played FFXI since NA release up until shortly after Voidwatch came out - intermittently I should admit. I took breaks when life, or the game, got to the point where I couldn't justify paying for it.

To be flat honest, I've talked with many former FFXI players outside the game after we all quit and our experiences were different. However many of them openly confessed to cheating as well, yet they had a good time, not caring that it came at the expense of many others. (Not even touching Gear Swap and Windower.)

So when you talk about D.Ring, or any of the King Drops, I don't give it thought, intentionally. That was a field I avoided after finding out how suspect it was first hand. It after that it was irrelevant to me. It was how a person conducted themselves that mattered. It became a bad correlation, however, when I noticed that the more advanced someone's gear was, the more likely that person was going to be unpleasant. That wasn't always the case, but it happened often enough to give pause, and eventually become jaded by it. This was galvanized on how the Aht Urgan mentality prevented my Fiance and I from playing together in the same Merit party. (She was Whm, I was Rdm. We actually switched servers because of how poorly she got treated as a WHM.)

Now conversely in FFXIV, I look at someone walking around with weapons like Ifrits spear and I smile a bit. Not because 'oh look, you got lucky at the loot', but because they went through the experience of Ifrit, and the feeling of being rewarded after their trials. So far, fights in FFXIV at the very least feel more tense and interesting, so naturally the rewards are going to feel better by me.

I'll also take a note of their other gear they're wearing, see what they're settling with. (You'd be amazed at the number of AF Wielders with Primal weapons.) Doing so often shows me that I've spent my time on Armor rather than weapons, and that's a fair exchange to have.

My only miffed comment is how the weapon is now a bit obsolete before I got my hands on it. Though, I'll want one just for collection.

Overall, I'm more about people than loot. It's far easier to help a person gear up, then to try to change their attitude, so when I see rare weapons and armor, I'm usually not as impressed as others are - because I don't know their story. Loot gets me thinking about the experience of going through the necessary steps of getting it though. And I'm far more open minded about FFXIV's achievements than I am about FFXI. Except perhaps Garuda weapons with the BLM exploit.

I will look more fondly on my normal Quality Centurion's Sword from FFXI and my Joyeuse than any of the epic loot other people got out of that game - because it's more about the experience. I really do hope they make Weapon racks in 2.0

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Sorry for the triple post. I had a lot addressed to me here, and in order to prevent confused I wanted to break it up somehow.

Sooo you never even touched hnms...........

[DarthTaru]

[B]
How would you organize a HNM system in this game? How would you manage issues with:

Spawn Rate and Claims (Including loss of claim conditions.)
Drop Rate and Attendance
Content value and Power Creep (I can define Power Creep if you're unfamiliar with the term.)
Spontaneity vs Accessibility
Addressing Exploits.

Let's construct two systems, one with your ideals and one with mine. And take into consideration each other's concerns while doing so. With luck, both could be implemented or inspire similar systems and the game can appeal to a wider audience for it.

I don't know what you mean by accessibility. I don't over complicate how accessible HNMs are.

You're on a server.
I'm on a server.
An HNM pops on a server.

As far as I can tell we both have equal accessibility, each and every time it pops.

I will say I would like to see a much more dynamic HNM pop system in this game than existed in XI and by dynamic I suppose I mean unpredictable. I can say I had a lot of fun times in Dragon's Aery but I can also say I sat there bored out of my skull for many hours, as well. My understanding of the randomness of the Primal pops is a step in the right direction as far as i'm concerned and would like to see many HNMs follow this formula. I don't think it would be a terrible idea to make every mob in the game a potential place holder for some of them so that even level 2's outside Uldah may find themselves more motivated to play after being eaten by a level 90 dragon shortly after killing a squirrel.
Tiamat in the distant corner of the world one week, ten feet outside Gridania another.

Spawn rates should vary depending on the majesty of the mob. I have no issue with an Ultima Weapon spawning once every 3~5 days. It isn't like I have nothing else to do in the game but sit in my mog house whining about spawn timers unless he's been spotted. Drops should also be rare (but not Darklight body rare) since these mobs would not be farmable (grindable...) 24 hours a day.

I am not one to complain about not being instantly rewarded. In XI I was eager to get the HNM drops I wanted but never got emo if they didn't drop. I enjoyed the kill, I enjoyed the claim, I enjoyed the fight. A drop is just an added bonus.
That's because you fight HNMs, you don't grind them. That's the difference.

And to what exploits are you referring?

[ShivenCasull]

And to what exploits are you referring?

I know in XI for the longest time SE didn't address packet sniffers when it came to hunting NMs. (Don't know if they ever did, only played for a year & 1/2 after release) Nothing like sitting in an area camping a monster to see someone walk up and stand in one spot and wait for it to spawn in front of them...

Another side effect (dunno if it counts as an exploit) was how often parties would MPK each other for HNM spawns.

These hardly help create an enjoyable experience. I would rather have world PVP than have to deal with someone trying to MPK my party.

as for the topic, it's a good disscussion.

[Hyrist]

There definatly have been miscommunications, but still you stand by issues I've already countered and addressed.

Hyrist:
I have first hand experience with precisely what the difference was and that difference was precisely what I said it was - motivation.

I've had both hardcore and casual experience both in and without of FFXI. (Was a top Guild member in Aion for a while. EQ beforehand.) And I understand what you are saying about motivation being a major factor here. But that factor cannot be be isolated as the primary reason. Your experience may vary. But to make a metaphoric statement there is only so many times you can get kicked in the gut before the fight is kicked out of you.

Morale, is the term I am looking for. You cannot maintain motivation in a hostile environment with low morale.

And I do believe that some of your stated reasons for not wanting open world HNMs are overly self centered.
You don't want open world HNMs because you don't want to camp them and because you don't want to compete for them and because all of this they shouldn't be in the game despite the fact that, in an endgame linkshell large enough and organized enough to routinely kill HNMs, you don't always have to be.

Mmm. There you go again with that accusatory tone. I'm not sure you're aware of it, but you're doing it.

No, not me. It's not that I don't want to camp. I'm just as content leaving that entire branch of the game alone in FFXIV as I was after I got burned in both FFXI and Aion. (Aion was worse, in some cases, btw.) My acertion is that nobody should have to go through that. That it appeals to too narrow of a group without modifications to be productive content. And even your regulars for years on that complained over multiple issues that, in this game, should be addressed before implementation.

But to stress - this is an academical discussion. Where the true numbers lie as to what number desires what and what SE should go for ultimately should be in SEs hands to ask in a survey. Don't try to construed the argument. I can just easily say 'you' don't want any changes because 'you' have rose tinted views of being on top and 'you' want to impose your goals for prestige on the group and anything short won't be good for 'anyone'?

My argument isn't selfish it's my bias. I believe more open content will result in a healthier game. That does not mean you will always get claim every 8 hours just because it's spawned that frequently. That was just one idea among many that would provide a deeper, yet rich enviroment.

The Great Buffalo's of the world have to be farmed. The biggest, baddest, rarest of the HNMs in XI had to be conquered.

Ok, there's some issue here in communicating what means 'biggest, baddest'.

AV and PW were the biggest, baddest. They had to be conquered. The tier below, challenging that they were, still had to be farmed.

Fafnir, Nidhog, Tiamat, etc. these guy weren't the biggest and baddest. They were ultimately farmed like the rest. Hunted relentlessly for their drops, not their challenge. They were the prey of the strong, even though they ate the weak.

Dynamis Lord, Kirin when he first came out, Chariots when they came out. Odin, Bahamut These were guys that had to be Conquered in there day. Ground Kings? They were hard, yeah but they felt more like 'big game' than "Big Boss."

We've not touched very much on the concept of HQ spawns. And 8 hour HNM with an HQ that spawns perhaps only a few times a week isn't beyond my purview of good mechanics. It could function like AV on Jailor of Love does in that respect. (We can disagree that 8 hours isn't sufficiently long enough wait for you I'll stand by my idea that any more of rotating shifts or waiting around to do nothing during that time is a bad game mechanic, even in an MMO field, like how a 12 hour PW fight is a bad mechanic.)


We seem to be stuck on the tip of the iceburg when it comes to the depth of this subject matter.

Our difference in opinion shouldn't really matter. So long as SE keeps the player's interested we can debate buzzwords for years and it wouldn't matter a lick.



But I'm done bouncing the same topic back and forth on the same thing. It does nothing for the conversation. I'm not here to convince you, and I don't begrudge you your views. But I don't agree the HNM system should be left as it was conceived of in FFXI. This simply is not that game, it is its own - it should improve upon it.

Let's talk more about HNMs in general. Ground kings, stood around and waited to be pegged. Tiamat could appear in difference places. Ixion had to be chased down. Sandworm brought YOU to the fight once you found him. What are some more ways we could keep the hunting of these HNMs unique - barring the conversation of things like pop times. What sort of things in an open world fight you would like to see?

If I were to partake, I wouldn't mind the idea of an actual 'hunt'. You pursue your target, it fights, as it gets weaker, it's got a chance to bolt on you and you've got to chase it back down. Or have a monster make a tactical retreat to lead you into an ambush.

There is a lot that could be done to add to the excitement and depth of the HNM system.

[Eclipse]

Why I want to see open world content and what drew me to FFXI and kept me there until 2009.

1. Competition:
- The thrill of the hunt and capture. From NM's to coffers to farming and mining it was all fun.

2. Reward
- Watching other shells take down or being watched take down an HNM.

3. The Unknown
- Never knowing what you were going to experience outside of an instance. May run into an angry antlion or attacked by an angry tonberry.

4. Beauty
- You could go from zone to zone and within that zone into another zone and it flowed, the world was designed so that the world would flow. You put anything into an instance and you don't necessarily have to make anything flow, just add a crystal or portal into some random cave and poof, your all set.

5. Discovery
- Ability to go through large maps and learn ways to move through the map, the safe spots, the drop downs the pit falls the enemy locations.

6. More practice.
- Sometimes instances are only opened by someone who has ability to access the quest. In the open world you can always experience the content with or without someone needing access.

7. Fear
- The fear of getting lost, the fear of death... I don't fear anything, I have no anxiety about dying, about getting lost.

Open world content allows for a different dynamic, a different feel for the game. If people don't like it they do not have to engage in it, if people don't like instances they don't have to engage in it.

If your a hard core gamer and you need access to either to meet your goals then you will access it and compete with it.

If we have instances we should have more outdoor content as I like to call it. What I mean is there is more than one type of gaming dynamic, so why not include both to encourage a wider variety of gamers to play? Wouldn't that allow for a larger player base with a wider variety of content?

--

I miss my adrenaline getting pumped up when we were camping Nidhogg or Fafy or chasing down Ixion... I miss that. The only time that happens now is when I am farming Karakul Fleece and someone starts to farm against me. Haha I think my adrenaline would be better placed on an NM.