Can we get an idea on what to expect from the open world in version 2? (A bit long)

[DarthTaru]

I see the word "monopolization" coming up a lot so I think we need to identify why certain linkshells were able to monopolize certain HNMs (or most, if not all of them) and let's just keep the word "bot" out of the discussion because everyone who was either in a super-shell or at one point got overwhelmed by one knows that wasn't always the main factor and sometimes not a factor at all.

Let's use Tiamat as an example because I think it's a good one. It dropped a game breaking piece of gear for one of the most important jobs in FFXI and -maybe more importantly- was sellable, and sold for 25~50 million gil for a very, very long time. It was on a 3~5 day repop timer so it couldn't really be camped by an entire linkshell like Nidhogg, and required linkshells to produce claim parties that could stop what they were doing, port out, cover 3 zones, and claim before their rivals. I think Tiamat makes for a good mob for discussion when it comes to why linkshells monopolized and how they were able to.

Ultimately, it just came down to motivation. Overly simplified? No. Anyone who was in a super-shell knows they dominated Tiamat and mobs like Tiamat because when the pop was announced in LS chat they were gone, on their way to the zone regardless of what they were doing, organized, ready to go. No exploit, not third party program, just pure, unrivaled motivation. If two linkshells had this same motivation and LS philosophy there would no one LS monopolizing and both linkshells would get their slice of the pie. If 3, the same, and etc etc.

Why did linkshells not get claim on mobs like these? Let's just clear the air in the interest of honesty. A lot of linkshells couldn't kill these mobs because they didn't have the practice or skill. If the reason was a lack of skill why they didn't get claim doesn't matter. If the reason was practice it was their own fault for a lacking motivation. Jormy was up 24/7 and if a linkshell can kill Jormy they can kill Tiamat.

So unmotivated linkshells, even moderately capable ones (doing sky, doing sea, etc) were simply not as motivated as super-shells and this, and this alone, lead to monopolization. If you walk away from content you cannot blame others for "monopolizing" it. That's absurd. Nor should you NOT design content because some fall into a state of defeatism easily and ignore it while complaining about those who don't.

[Hyrist]

Ultimately, it just came down to motivation. Overly simplified?

For god sakes, yes. You're overgeneralizing.

What cause mob monopolization was in part the horrific spawn rates yes, but also what effectively lead to window camping.

By no means, what soever should any reasonable person be on call at ungodly hours of the morning just so they can go and farm a mob who has unique Best In Slots - period.

That's artifical difficulty, not ACTUAL difficulty. There was a reason why people 'unmotivated'. The spawn conditions on these monsters were completely unreasonable by any important standard, and defending said system by saying "Oh it's the Casual's fault" is infuriating. - a system that says you have to be at the ready 24-7 for a video game and be willing to spend 12+ hours at on sitting and/or rotate shifts. That is wrong on a humanitarian level - not a question of 'if you're dedicated enough.' You flatly should not have to be dedicated to that point because it is detrimental to real life.

Anything shorter than 3 spawns a day even if it's a minboss placeholder, is horrific standards to have in an MMO, and is what creates these horrible behaviors such as monopolization attempts, harassment and cheating. The HNM scene was nothing less than a hostile, overdrawn, and just generally unfriendly player enviroment. That's why players were unmotivated about it - not because they were simply lazy or 'not good enough', as you're trying to imply.

I can't stress this more, while there can be difficult challenges, the FFXI HNM concept was flawed and toxic to its very roots game wise. And it's my personal opinion that the concept needs to be re-thought from the ground up.

And I am full of the ideas on that topic. Ideas aimed at increasing both fair play, accessibility, and reward yield, while retaining a lot of the tension and difficulty of epic HNM fights. But some of the mechanics I have in mind might not go over well with people, most notedly of them would be a Free-Company Wide Cooldown on claiming a HNM imposed by having to have a specific item used to claim the monster to begin with, that you can only buy so often. This would be offset by the fact that these HNMs would spawn at least three times a day (an 8 hour repop timer would be about the max I feel would be reasonable) with the exception of course of Primals, who would be off the claim list if they're under the control of a Free Company - who would feel the cooldown once their primal is used or their allotted time to use it expires.

That would flat out guarentee that other Companies got their shot, and the cooldown timer (I was thinking 48 hours.) Would still be shorter than those who were waiting 3-5 days for Tiamat to spawn in FFXI. But this way, instead of 'being on call' they can actually focus their time on other aspects of the game (or other aspects of their real life). Or, if they're really into it, go find another HNM to claim.

There's other ideas I've got in mind that are less restrictive and more insentivizing for various play, and a feeling of unity for a Company as a whole. But the above one is defiantly going to rub some players the wrong way.

In the end, the game shouldn't be just 'casual friendly' but even for hardcore, it should still be humanitarian. As I stated before, there should be no desire for foul play in the HNM scene, and that should be reinforced by the mechanics.

[Jynx]

By no means, what soever should any reasonable person be on call at ungodly hours of the morning just so they can go and farm a mob who has unique Best In Slots - period.

Funny I only ever camped HNM's that were in my window of play time. Guess I had enough patience to wait for the spawn windows to clear up for my playtime.

It wasn't a perfect system but it kept some rare items rare, and gave them value in the economy. You can't have items "Worth" something if everyone can just go grab it and get a gold star for breathing.

[Hyrist]

Funny I only ever camped HNM's that were in my window of play time. Guess I had enough patience to wait for the spawn windows to clear up for my playtime.

It wasn't a perfect system but it kept some rare items rare, and gave them value in the economy. You can't have items "Worth" something if everyone can just go grab it and get a gold star for breathing.

No, but you should get rewarded for what you've done.

For example, if your LS succeded in Breaking the horns off of a Ram HNM, you should get those horns in your loot pool at the moment of breaking, and it shouldn't go to the shell that picked up the fight after you wiped.

They might get that pair of MNK weapons you have a rare chance of getting for defeating the HNM, but your shell got rewarded for what you accomplished.

Also, there could also be a 'Bounty' system in which your Company gains points by going out on bounties for HNMs. Defeating specific HNMs unlocks some of that HNM's native loot pool to be purchased at high cost with bounty points. This way, going out and killing a different HNM even though you have no personal interest in that, awards you points towards a goal you may personally have from a different HNM - even if collecting the points may take a lot longer.

Then you can keep some portion, primarily a consumable item or perk, of the mobs loot pool to be exclusive to them, like a Meteria or a food component. So you have several reasons to hunt down HNMs. Not only are you going for a chance for a quick drop at those U/U items, those that want different items get progress towards them (even if that progress is dirt slow to keep it rare or simply gathering points to purchase an alternative version that may be say a slight lesser to the rare drop.) Meeting conditions in the fight will get you loot as you meet them, so that failed runs aren't completely pointless. And you get the rare consumables that can make the HNM worthwhile to farm even if the power creep surpasses the value of the permanent items that drops. (which could then be used say for Bounty points or GC seals or whatever.)

There are many ways you can impose 'worth' on an item or a monster, and it does not have to just be a super-rare best in slot. And while I agree people have to work for what they achieve, they should be rewarded for the work they have done.

[Jynx]

No, but you should get rewarded for what you've done.

HNM dropped tons of usefull items aside from the coveted ultra rare ones. The only reason you don't remember them is because so many dropped they became like skittles allover the place with no real value.

You can't impose worth by letting everyone have it every single time. If you make a Ram NM that always drops a horn then that horn is going to become useless in a short period of time.

[Hyrist]

You can't impose worth by letting everyone have it every single time. If you make a Ram NM that always drops a horn then that horn is going to become useless in a short period of time.

It would always drop horn, IF you break the horns, which could be a challenge in and of itself to achieve.

And if the recipe for whether the horn is used for requires multiple, or is used in multiple formula, then your demand is sufficient to keep its worth.

This also is in complete neglect that if it's used in a Meldeable/Convertible piece of equipment, demand for it is going to be HIGH, because it's likely to get blown up a lot.

You mention that HNMs drop a bunch of useful gear. But the problem with that is, like, in the case say, Dragon Heart - that's dropped from all dragon types and several BCNMs. The horns themselves don't have to be available on every Ram type HNM, and even if they are, you don't have to give a 100% drop rate. I just stated that the horns would drop in inventory when the horns were broken, rather than when the boss is defeated - you get the reward for the objectives you've completed.

You can argue value as much as you'd like, but the truth of the matter is, this isn't FFXI, the entire structure of this game, especially gear and item wise, is different. Crafted gear isn't a permanent commodity like it is in other MMOs. So you can't make value judgments just off of its drop rate - which is why I mentioned things like meteria unique to the NM. (Ex. Meteria of Thunderous Tread: % chance to stun on hit, etc.) Commensurable loot unique to that NM, rather than have it on every single monster of that type, like in the example of Dragon Hearts.

And that's not touching on the argument of the fact that these experiences should be part of the value itself - but that's a different can of worms.

[Babydoll]

Funny I only ever camped HNM's that were in my window of play time. Guess I had enough patience to wait for the spawn windows to clear up for my playtime.

It wasn't a perfect system but it kept some rare items rare, and gave them value in the economy. You can't have items "Worth" something if everyone can just go grab it and get a gold star for breathing.

Same here lol. Its funny..FFXI was the first game where end game stuff to me actually felt like a true accomplishment. Not "Oh hay guiz I beat the random number generator, therefore I am leet" When someone had an e.body or a dalm back in the day..you knew they more then likely really truly earned it. When I see darklight in this game I just think ok? They got lucky and beat the rng..cool. Glad for them..but not that impressed lol.

With those kind of HNM (Where the HQ would spawn like once a week) I am kinda 50/50. I liked it because it was fun camping sometimes, each time was a different experience. Instances can be very rewarding too...just this RNG syatem thingy they have going isn't working at all.

[Hyrist]

With those kind of HNM (Where the HQ would spawn like once a week) I am kinda 50/50. I liked it because it was fun camping sometimes, each time was a different experience. Instances can be very rewarding too...just this RNG syatem thingy they have going isn't working at all.

Except that the HNM system in FFXI was just an RNG system too.

You had a RNG determine the time of pop within the window, the RNG determined the likelyhood of a HQ pop, and the RNG determined what appeared in the loot pool.

It's a double standard. If anything, the random number generation system really could be used MORE to spice up the placement of monsters and objectives within dungeon runs to make them feel more lively and dynamic. I woulden't mind them pulling a WoW and occasionally being confronted by a HQ version of a boss that had a far better drop rate on my desired loot in trade for a much harder fight.

But let's be real here. Everything is pretty much RNG based when it comes to loot drops - which is actually a problem. I like the token idea from Garuda, that you get something for achieving something, and that can be put towards your long term goal.

But if I look at someone who has their own name on a Triple Meld item in 2.0. They earned it. I want to have that same feeling for dungeon drops as well. But earning it really shouldn't rely just on getting lucky with drops - having a way to work for it too. Will mean you earned it one way or another.

[Babydoll]

Except that the HNM system in FFXI was just an RNG system too.

You had a RNG determine the time of pop within the window, the RNG determined the likelyhood of a HQ pop, and the RNG determined what appeared in the loot pool.

It's a double standard. If anything, the random number generation system really could be used MORE to spice up the placement of monsters and objectives within dungeon runs to make them feel more lively and dynamic. I woulden't mind them pulling a WoW and occasionally being confronted by a HQ version of a boss that had a far better drop rate on my desired loot in trade for a much harder fight.

But let's be real here. Everything is pretty much RNG based when it comes to loot drops - which is actually a problem. I like the token idea from Garuda, that you get something for achieving something, and that can be put towards your long term goal.

But if I look at someone who has their own name on a Triple Meld item in 2.0. They earned it. I want to have that same feeling for dungeon drops as well. But earning it really shouldn't rely just on getting lucky with drops - having a way to work for it too. Will mean you earned it one way or another.

It had a fixed time window to spawn, that was 100%. It was within 3 hours. It is a RNG system yes but not as much as we have now in XIV >_< I agree though it is a problem that needs to be fixed.

For the HNM...it was somewhat of a fixed thing. The king would have to spawn before 7 days are up, and the HNM would have to spawn within 3 hours each day. At least that much is 100% Hehe the only thing I would say could be considered RNG was the ABJ dropping (Had a 1/3 chance to get the piece you wanted)...but even then no matter what something always dropped whenever we claimed a king. It made me feel like I actually did something instead of 400+ speed runs with 0 gear. But then not claiming sucked and meant I wasted 3 hours...so yeah both have their downsides that is for sure >_<

I guess with FFXI the fact is was rng didn't really occur to me because each time we got a king someone got something, or I am dumb, etc lol. But in XIV whenever we do speed runs or ifrit/garuda etc we end up repeating them so much that RNG becomes so much more apparent...in fact I didn't even know what RNG was (I thought people were talking about Ranger job LOL sad) until I played this game >.>;

[DarthTaru]

For god sakes, yes. You're overgeneralizing.

What cause mob monopolization was in part the horrific spawn rates yes, but also what effectively lead to window camping.

... And so how on earth am I generalizing when I say that HNM drops and HNM `monopolization` were a result of linkshell motivation and organization?

By no means, what soever should any reasonable person be on call at ungodly hours of the morning just so they can go and farm a mob who has unique Best In Slots - period.

And so what does this have to do with anything?
I want to just begin before you take offense in stating that I have no doubts you're a great person with good intentions here. That said, when you say things like this I sort of get the feeling that you've never been in an organized and effective endgame linkshell. At least not one that was fitting for you. Based on how jaded you seem to be regarding HNM `monopolization` I'll assume not one at all.

A linkshell is not an individual. A linkshell, obviously, is the sum of all of its individuals, individuals who will be online and play at differing times, with differing availability. If an HNM has a a window that is two days long, that does not mean an individual had to stay awake for 48 hours straight staring at a bush where a Dragon might pop. An `individual` does not kill an HNM; a linkshell does. If Tiamat pops and you are not online that is fine. Your linkshell kills it and one of your friends gets the drop. You log on and are happy to hear the news.

If you're not online and neither are any of your friends, another linkshell will obviously kill it and you go about your business and in 3 days when the window opens again the possibility of a pop emerges as something your linkshell might be able to do that's outside whatever schedule it has set.

You, the individual, didn't have to be online for every Tiamat, every Cerb, every KB, every KV, every this or every that to attain a drop, because your linkshell exists when you're offline just as much as it does when you are online.
Eventually you're online for a pop, a claim, and a kill, and eventually, by virtue of being a member of your linkshell, you acquire a shiny new drop.

So this acting like you had to stay awake for 72 hours straight at a time to kill an HNM, or compete with people who were doing so, isn't based in reality.

That's artifical difficulty, not ACTUAL difficulty. There was a reason why people 'unmotivated'. The spawn conditions on these monsters were completely unreasonable by any important standard, and defending said system by saying "Oh it's the Casual's fault" is infuriating. - a system that says you have to be at the ready 24-7 for a video game and be willing to spend 12+ hours at on sitting and/or rotate shifts. That is wrong on a humanitarian level - not a question of 'if you're dedicated enough.' You flatly should not have to be dedicated to that point because it is detrimental to real life.

Again, you're looking at this from, with all due respect, an entirely selfish and self centered point of view. You do not need to be online 24/7. Your linkshell, however, needs to be active enough and large enough to be able to cover a fair amount of the day to participate in certain window opportunities. Now you might say "well that isn't fair that you need a big or organized or active linkshell" but that is the point of these monsters. That is their audience, so to speak.

Ultimately, where I suspect our main disagreement arises from is in you seem to believe that all content needs to be at the ready and easily attainable and accessibly at all times. What an MMO needs is to have a good mix of content that is readily available and accessibly and plenty of things to keep people enjoying themselves every day with added content that isn't to break the routine.

HNM's are supposed to be rare. They're supposed to have long windows. They're supposed to be relevant and sought after long after their released, rather than farmed to death on instant or 1 hour pop timers until they're no longer interesting like (not that they're HNMs) Dodore, Great Buffalo, etc.

"Me, me, me" is what i'm taking away from your posts. What you seemingly do not understand is that HNMs are not about you, they're about the world, they would be about Eorzea, they're about the environment, they're about rarity, prestige, etc.

If you have plenty of instanced dungeons, plenty of Limbus, plenty of this, plenty of that, to log on to every day, for whatever time you can and want to dedicate to the game, why on earth would it offend you so much that there are other things that will not be there waiting for you? That there are things beyond that to aspire towards?

There was PLENTY of great gear in FFXI. It isn't like you were the laughing stock of Whitegate and completely incapable of venturing out into the wildnerness if you didn't have HNM drops from head to toe.

I just don't understand why if people have plenty of things to do, and there's plenty of fun content in the game, that they would be so offended that there were other things, greater things, higher level things, that they could not yet do and wasn't laid at their feet wrapped with a bow.

My HNM linkshell in XI did plenty. We also couldn't beat Absolute Virtue...We couldn't beat Pandemonium Warden... yet the existence of these mobs didn't at all offend me - It motivated me and inspired my curiosity.