Page 9 of 11 FirstFirst ... 7 8 9 10 11 LastLast
Results 81 to 90 of 135

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Player
    Hyrist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Next to a dead Snurble.
    Posts
    1,969
    Character
    Lin Celistine
    World
    Goblin
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthTaru View Post
    My understanding of the randomness of the Primal pops is a step in the right direction as far as i'm concerned and would like to see many HNMs follow this formula. I don't think it would be a terrible idea to make every mob in the game a potential place holder for some of them so that even level 2's outside Uldah may find themselves more motivated to play after being eaten by a level 90 dragon shortly after killing a squirrel.
    Tiamat in the distant corner of the world one week, ten feet outside Gridania another.
    I'm in support of that. Though let's not get TOO random in the idea, at least not with every HNM. I would like to see HNMs that have a sort of behavior to them. Maybe you see them in some far off area and are not able claim them at that moment, but it's a telling sign that they might appear soon at a set number of possible locations. Something to make you salavate at the hunt.

    Spawn rates should vary depending on the majesty of the mob. I have no issue with an Ultima Weapon spawning once every 3~5 days. It isn't like I have nothing else to do in the game but sit in my mog house whining about spawn timers unless he's been spotted. Drops should also be rare (but not Darklight body rare) since these mobs would not be farmable (grindable...) 24 hours a day.
    I'd say there should be a fair chance of getting specific things drop if you meet specific conditions, and those conditions can sometimes be exclusive to one another. Not in all fights, but for say a specific monster, you encourage specific circumstances that change the loot pool. You might be able to trade a higher drop rate for a conditioning system like that. Granted 'higher' doesn't mean 'common'.


    I am not one to complain about not being instantly rewarded. In XI I was eager to get the HNM drops I wanted but never got emo if they didn't drop. I enjoyed the kill, I enjoyed the claim, I enjoyed the fight. A drop is just an added bonus.
    That's because you fight HNMs, you don't grind them. That's the difference.
    Mm. Agreed.

    Though as stated before, I'd like to see more elements that make fights in general, not just HNMs, mind you, more unique as an encounter. HNM's get the benefit of being unique in the idea that you have to hunt/camp them. But I'd like to see some fights that have behavior changes as well.


    How are you on the idea of a 'hunting club' sort of NPC guild that gives rewards for successful NM and HNM hunts, offers tips, posts leader-boards (How long it took to kill, what location, etc.)? Something in the vein of what it was implied in FFXII. I found it odd that FFXI never had some sort of accompaniment for that.
    (0)

  2. #2
    Player
    Nabiri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    1,164
    Character
    Khaien Akiyama
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Ninja Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthTaru View Post
    I will say I would like to see a much more dynamic HNM pop system in this game than existed in XI and by dynamic I suppose I mean unpredictable. I can say I had a lot of fun times in Dragon's Aery but I can also say I sat there bored out of my skull for many hours, as well. My understanding of the randomness of the Primal pops is a step in the right direction as far as i'm concerned and would like to see many HNMs follow this formula. I don't think it would be a terrible idea to make every mob in the game a potential place holder for some of them so that even level 2's outside Uldah may find themselves more motivated to play after being eaten by a level 90 dragon shortly after killing a squirrel.
    Tiamat in the distant corner of the world one week, ten feet outside Gridania another.
    I just have to say, this all sounds very exciting. I would love for HNMs to be unpredictable, unlike in XI where people knew the spawn times. (Perhaps have a few that are predictable...) but it would be very exciting to suddenly have a giant dragon or something appear nearby you.. Shock, fear, danger, excitement. That's what Eorzea needs so badly. It all feels so safe, peaceful... tame.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthTaru View Post
    I am not one to complain about not being instantly rewarded. In XI I was eager to get the HNM drops I wanted but never got emo if they didn't drop. I enjoyed the kill, I enjoyed the claim, I enjoyed the fight. A drop is just an added bonus.
    That's because you fight HNMs, you don't grind them. That's the difference.
    I'm the same. I love the thrill of the hunt. Forget the items.. that's just a bonus if you get lucky.
    I'm all about the competition, the hunt, the epic battle, trying not to get smashed. lol And when I do fall in battle... it just makes me more determined for next time. >:3


    Quote Originally Posted by Hyrist View Post
    How are you on the idea of a 'hunting club' sort of NPC guild that gives rewards for successful NM and HNM hunts, offers tips, posts leader-boards (How long it took to kill, what location, etc.)? Something in the vein of what it was implied in FFXII. I found it odd that FFXI never had some sort of accompaniment for that.
    Just wanted to throw in that I like this idea as well. Something similar to FF12 would be interesting. "Save the realm from (random giant monster)!~"
    I don't know if it'd work for everything, but it would be cool to see what SE could do with it.
    (0)
    Last edited by Nabiri; 07-14-2012 at 05:06 AM.

    ~She gave her heart to a falling star~
    ~~~~~~
    If he's not here, then where?
    ~~~~~~
    ~Been searching for my Afterman~

  3. #3
    Player Jynx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    4,964
    Character
    Jynx Masamune
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 100
    The only thing keeping the value of armor in check in this game is the fact that much of it gets consumed via materia breaks. Otherwise even the highest level of crafted gear would be worthless...hell for the most part it still is until you get some good melds the actual creation of (Most) items does not net you money.

    Market saturation would happen alot faster than you think. This isn't FFXI but we can all take lessons from what items did/didn't become worthless in the span of two weeks after it was released.
    (2)

  4. #4
    Player
    Rutelor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    472
    Character
    Rutelor Mhaurani
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyrist View Post
    But that's like saying you can enter harder dungeon once a week or that you can enter a primal battle after 15 minute cooldown.

    There's no difference there - the attempt is set in stone, the loot is based off of a terribly contrived RNG. I get the concept that rare gear should be physically rare, but instead of making it based on luck and leave the players to impose their own loot priority system, give them a secondary system that encourages players to work together to get what they want both individually and collectively.

    The old systems weren't good. They're just nostalgic now that we're past them.

    That's not to say throw the baby out with the bath water,as someone suggested. But the baby is 10 years old now and that's past time for it to be potty trained.
    Hyrist, I believe that people that came to hate the delay systems, reacted that way basically out of impatience. They wanted immediate returns, ergo hated the wait; they consolidated in a segment of our population that at some point decided these systems were bad; however that assessment was just based on their impatient emotional reaction, not a scientific analysis. Thus was born the urban legend that goes along the lines that the luck-based, RGN-mechanics were superseded and obsolete. This was helped by the proliferation of low-challenge, almost-immediate-satisfaction games where this population segment was further incubated.

    But this is a game, not a lifestyle, nor a political system*. And luck has a place in it. A complete, strict meritocracy, one based on skill, would end up either making the game grueling, unforgiving and hardcore, or overrun with elite gear.

    The obsession of many with discarding time-proven mechanics, just because they are what they perceive as "old" is misguided, in my opinion. Backgammon, Parcheesi, Mahjong, Bridge, are games based on age-old mechanics, all of them rely heavily on luck and are still fervidly played and considered by millions every bit as challenging as they were when they were played for the first time, in at least two of those cases, almost a millennium ago.

    R

    *Even political systems that aspire to fairness, like ours, include lotteries and random number decisions in several of their decisions. Ever heard of an immigration lottery, or a subsidized housing lottery?
    (3)
    Last edited by Rutelor; 07-13-2012 at 06:45 AM. Reason: Inclusion of quote.

  5. #5
    Player
    Hyrist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Next to a dead Snurble.
    Posts
    1,969
    Character
    Lin Celistine
    World
    Goblin
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Rutelor View Post
    Hyrist, I believe that people that came to hate the delay systems, reacted that way basically out of impatience. They wanted immediate returns, ergo hated the wait; they consolidated in a segment of our population that at some point decided these systems were bad; however that assessment was just based on their impatient emotional reaction, not a scientific analysis. Thus was born the urban legend that goes along the lines that the luck-based, RGN-mechanics were superseded and obsolete. This was helped by the proliferation of low-challenge, almost-immediate-satisfaction games where this population segment was further incubated.
    That's an interesting theory, but it's only one perspective, not actual fact. The divide between the playerbase runs far deeper than simply being tired of being strung along by the nose by random luck or overly long grinds. By creating such barriers of artificial difficulty it became a matter of 'who has the most free time', and issue so profound, that Tanaka overcompensated for it by creating the fatigue system, and thus alienated those with more time.

    The key here is to create a balance between progression and luck. Even if it takes an individual a long time to accomplish something, if they can visibly see their progress they'll usually continue along. We're effectively mixing age-old mechanics together. The Donkey and the Carrot, and the Skinner Box. Between the two, you should be able to get what you wan't with the proper helping of determination.

    But this is a game, not a lifestyle, nor a political system*. And luck has a place in it. A complete, strict meritocracy, one based on skill, would end up either making the game grueling, unforgiving and hardcore, or overrun with elite gear.
    I agree. But Balance must be struck between blind luck and steady determination. Keeping issues about 'elite gear' flooding the game at bay is done easily by things already in progress like the Relic Weapons. Those are things that require both a bit of luck and a good helping of determination. It's a long term goal that players can work towards and if it's not pleasing to others there are alternatives that, while not the best in slot, will be more than serviceable and are not to far behind to be looked at as a determent.

    The obsession of many with discarding time-proven mechanics, just because they are what they perceive as "old" is misguided, in my opinion. Backgammon, Parcheesi, Mahjong, Bridge, are games based on age-old mechanics, all of them rely heavily on luck and are still fervidly played and considered by millions every bit as challenging as they were when they were played for the first time, in at least two of those cases, almost a millennium ago.

    R
    There's a logical flaw there, however, comparing a game that is simplistic in its nature to one as encompassing as a Massive multiplayer game.

    In Backgammon, Parchizi, etc, you saw the roll, you knew the game, and there was little else to the game besides an enjoyable time spent. And no matter how many times you played, or how long you played it, you only payed for the game out of the box.

    Here, time is quite literally money. You pay every month to be here, you not allowed to see the dice for many events, melding being the exception (And oddly, I find it more thrilling to blow up gear than it is go to do a raid. At least then I'm seeing the gamble in front of my eyes, instead of the wool.)

    Given the fact that money is invested, time is invested. Some manner of progress for the work return should be alloted. I'm not talking instant gratification. That actualy is a falacy. People would LIKE instant gratification, but what they truely want or need is the sense of steady progress. They want to see that the time and money spent is responded to by a sense of forward momentum. Once that stalls out, due to exhaustion of content or exhaustion of paitence, then you see subscriptions lost.

    Keeping people engaged for the long term is the goal here. Doing it with only a lottery system is going to exhaust the people with bad luck. So, you merge the luck and progress thing together, giving two courses to take to reach your goal. Doing so will keep a wider variety of players engaged. Will it speed progress compared to blind luck? Only for those of the worst kind of luck.

    And when gear is all said and done, there will be other distractions, such as PvP, and the Golden Saucer(tentative name). Plenty of other distractions to keep you entertained while you wait for new goals, or just when you need a break from your current goal.

    We'll have to keep an eye on how it all plays out together in the long run. I for one am vary intrigued about the future of FFXIV, and am not all that concerned that the mechanics won't pan out properly. Most of my conversation here is academic, and I have good faith that Yoshi-P will get the job done right. It might take a few bumps along the road but I'm willing to accept that, especially given all we have gone through already.

    The main thing that concerns me is the tone this community will take for the course of its life. I hope it to be a more upbeat one than Final Fantasy XI was in many circumstances, and some of the mechanics I suggested can insure that.

    But if the player-base adapts a more friendly nature due to other things implemented in the game, then they won't be needed.
    (2)
    Last edited by Hyrist; 07-13-2012 at 07:33 AM.

  6. #6
    Player
    Rutelor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    472
    Character
    Rutelor Mhaurani
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyrist View Post
    By creating such barriers of artificial difficulty it became a matter of 'who has the most free time' [...snip...]
    This is a game, Hyrst; praytell what aspect of difficulty in it is not artificial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyrist View Post
    The key here is to create a balance between progression and luck. Even if it takes an individual a long time to accomplish something, if they can visibly see their progress they'll usually continue along. We're effectively mixing age-old mechanics together. The Donkey and the Carrot, and the Skinner Box. Between the two, you should be able to get what you wan't with the proper helping of determination.
    That sounds more like a pitch for the American Dream than a game. I think, and many in the game design sector agree, that randomly generated numbers are an effective equalizer, as long as the probability is kept at a healthy range. I don't want a game that is mainly hard luck. What's "healthy," of course, is what's at stake here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyrist View Post
    I agree. But Balance must be struck between blind luck and steady determination. Keeping issues about 'elite gear' flooding the game at bay is done easily by things already in progress like the Relic Weapons. Those are things that require both a bit of luck and a good helping of determination. It's a long term goal that players can work towards and if it's not pleasing to others there are alternatives that, while not the best in slot, will be more than serviceable and are not to far behind to be looked at as a determent.
    Total agreement here. And for the most, we agree on most everything down below. Except for the fact that I don't really think any MMO player plays the game with the hope of beating it, finishing it and getting out of subscription charges. I do agree that for the investment a considerable amount of interesting and challenging new content should be constantly forthcoming.

    Also, you and I must have had radically different experiences in FFXI. To me the community in the server I played most of those years was a model of civility and niceness.

    Ah, yes, also I don't see the logical flaw that you attempt to pinpoint in the starting paragraph immediately below. My point was that you could have strategically and intellectually challenging games that included luck as an ingredient, that it's not some sort of obsolete mechanic we have outgrown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyrist View Post
    There's a logical flaw there, however, comparing a game that is simplistic in its nature to one as encompassing as a Massive multiplayer game.

    In Backgammon, Parchizi, etc, you saw the roll, you knew the game, and there was little else to the game besides an enjoyable time spent. And no matter how many times you played, or how long you played it, you only payed for the game out of the box.

    Here, time is quite literally money. You pay every month to be here, you not allowed to see the dice for many events, melding being the exception (And oddly, I find it more thrilling to blow up gear than it is go to do a raid. At least then I'm seeing the gamble in front of my eyes, instead of the wool.)

    Given the fact that money is invested, time is invested. Some manner of progress for the work return should be alloted. I'm not talking instant gratification. That actualy is a falacy. People would LIKE instant gratification, but what they truely want or need is the sense of steady progress. They want to see that the time and money spent is responded to by a sense of forward momentum. Once that stalls out, due to exhaustion of content or exhaustion of paitence, then you see subscriptions lost.

    Keeping people engaged for the long term is the goal here. Doing it with only a lottery system is going to exhaust the people with bad luck. So, you merge the luck and progress thing together, giving two courses to take to reach your goal. Doing so will keep a wider variety of players engaged. Will it speed progress compared to blind luck? Only for those of the worst kind of luck.

    And when gear is all said and done, there will be other distractions, such as PvP, and the Golden Saucer(tentative name). Plenty of other distractions to keep you entertained while you wait for new goals, or just when you need a break from your current goal.

    We'll have to keep an eye on how it all plays out together in the long run. I for one am vary intrigued about the future of FFXIV, and am not all that concerned that the mechanics won't pan out properly. Most of my conversation here is academic, and I have good faith that Yoshi-P will get the job done right. It might take a few bumps along the road but I'm willing to accept that, especially given all we have gone through already.

    The main thing that concerns me is the tone this community will take for the course of its life. I hope it to be a more upbeat one than Final Fantasy XI was in many circumstances, and some of the mechanics I suggested can insure that.

    But if the player-base adapts a more friendly nature due to other things implemented in the game, then they won't be needed.
    All around, however, I've come to realize that you and I are mostly on the same side. I just don't think the need for developers to provide a constant stream of content is new, or modern. I also don't believe in the underlining implication of your writing, that somehow what made FFXI compelling (for me, evidently not for you) is something obsolete or superseded. And I don't think luck was a capital part of it.

    R
    (4)

  7. #7
    Player
    Hyrist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Next to a dead Snurble.
    Posts
    1,969
    Character
    Lin Celistine
    World
    Goblin
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Rutelor View Post
    All around, however, I've come to realize that you and I are mostly on the same side. I just don't think the need for developers to provide a constant stream of content is new, or modern. I also don't believe in the underlining implication of your writing, that somehow what made FFXI compelling (for me, evidently not for you) is something obsolete or superseded. And I don't think luck was a capital part of it.

    R
    I think perhaps you've got a differing opinion on what made FFXI compelling.

    I'll be blunt. For me, the answer was commiseration. The game was grueling by many standards, FFXI players insulted WoW as casuals, even though it was a more successful game.

    It wasn't any mechanic that made FFXI good, though I'll give compliments to the Job/Subjob system, and the capasity to level multiple jobs on a single character, something that was good to carry over to XIV. But put bluntly, many of the mechanics were really bad - people complained about them for the duration and SE was slow to fix anything. Expansions were strung along with empty filler (You must wait till JP midnight to start the next quest!) And even when you could go through content, it wasn't there until the next patch three months down the line.

    And while there were some things that are just plain fun to do in the game, we're not touching on the more notorious issues here. Absolute Virtue, Pandemonium Warden, the Salvage Dupe scandal? Players weren't playing the game honestly and that speaks bad of the game mechanics. Too much was just drawn out in the wrong ways for the wrong reasons.

    So it wasn't the nuts and bolts of the game that made it worthwhile, in my opinion. It was the people, it was the lore, it was the story. Players grunted through all the miserable parts of the game because they loved the world head and shoulders above its mechanics. And they enjoyed the company they kept. There are people still outside that Game that hold pride in their home nation (And for you other scrubs, it's Winfirst! Remember that!) I know my previous nation choice affected my decision in XIV.

    That sort of attraction can be achieved regardless of the mechanics. And for many of us witnessing the fall of Meteor, that attachment to the world is already blooming.

    So no, I don't believe luck was a capital part of FFXI's success either, but neither do I believe it's mechanics were without crippling flaws, flaws this game is most defiantly going to have to shed off if it wants a larger subscription base.
    (2)

  8. #8
    Player
    NumenarMithrandir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Limsa
    Posts
    88
    Character
    Kyrie Vashai
    World
    Maduin
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 90
    After playing so many years of FFXI and FFXIV since day 1 CE release, I have been happy to sit back and watch how content unfolds on this game. I have enjoyed what Yoshi has done with it, and in the long run, before 2.0/2.0/beyond 2.0 I feel everything will come out exactly how most want it to. The game is becoming more challenging as it progresses, content is forming, and the player base is growing back steadily. I don't feel that it will ever be the exact same as FFXI, sadly.. however FFXIV is a great game, can only get better, and I have high hopes for current staff working on it. I'll watch it all play out, I know it will be enjoyable in the end and bring me the same FFXI did for the six years I played it.
    (1)

  9. #9
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,867
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    In all my experiences across different game forums, I feel like I'd be both happy and obligated to direct 60% of a given site's posters (though, perhaps not so oddly, only perhaps 10% here) to the discussion between Hyrist and Rutelor -- "This is what an intelligent discussion looks like," -- and hope for a chance in osmosis of mentality.
    ---------------
    On subject though, in the balance between "tried-and-true" and "modern" mechanics, a point of note is that either becomes an aged work the moment a new functional methodology is used. But more importantly, the methodology does not have to tie itself in any way to the systems that act as a means for that methodology. The feel of a game like FFXI does come from its mechanics, be it RNG-heavy or grind-heavy or whatever other general 'tools of the trade' come to mind, but they aren't an exclusive option. A game of the same feel, or designed on the same niche of its types of players' preferences, can be accomplished by any system, whether it be 'old' or 'modern' or far better yet -- actually original, and made to fit. Very few things considered mutually exclusive or opposite ends of the same spectrum have to be, if only one does not overprice the thought required to tailor a solution.

    Granted, many of the things mentioned here -- core bases like 'fairness' -- go well before either systems or methodologies, and in their cases this doesn't apply.

    Sorry for the rant. I guess it's just something that had been bugging me for some time now.
    (0)

  10. #10
    Player
    Hyrist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Next to a dead Snurble.
    Posts
    1,969
    Character
    Lin Celistine
    World
    Goblin
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Babydoll View Post
    Hyrist did you play XI? If you did I want to ask you...if you saw someone with a D.Ring (came from kings) what did you think? VS what do you think when you see someone with an Ifrit weapon? If not then nvm hehe
    I played FFXI since NA release up until shortly after Voidwatch came out - intermittently I should admit. I took breaks when life, or the game, got to the point where I couldn't justify paying for it.

    To be flat honest, I've talked with many former FFXI players outside the game after we all quit and our experiences were different. However many of them openly confessed to cheating as well, yet they had a good time, not caring that it came at the expense of many others. (Not even touching Gear Swap and Windower.)

    So when you talk about D.Ring, or any of the King Drops, I don't give it thought, intentionally. That was a field I avoided after finding out how suspect it was first hand. It after that it was irrelevant to me. It was how a person conducted themselves that mattered. It became a bad correlation, however, when I noticed that the more advanced someone's gear was, the more likely that person was going to be unpleasant. That wasn't always the case, but it happened often enough to give pause, and eventually become jaded by it. This was galvanized on how the Aht Urgan mentality prevented my Fiance and I from playing together in the same Merit party. (She was Whm, I was Rdm. We actually switched servers because of how poorly she got treated as a WHM.)

    Now conversely in FFXIV, I look at someone walking around with weapons like Ifrits spear and I smile a bit. Not because 'oh look, you got lucky at the loot', but because they went through the experience of Ifrit, and the feeling of being rewarded after their trials. So far, fights in FFXIV at the very least feel more tense and interesting, so naturally the rewards are going to feel better by me.

    I'll also take a note of their other gear they're wearing, see what they're settling with. (You'd be amazed at the number of AF Wielders with Primal weapons.) Doing so often shows me that I've spent my time on Armor rather than weapons, and that's a fair exchange to have.

    My only miffed comment is how the weapon is now a bit obsolete before I got my hands on it. Though, I'll want one just for collection.

    Overall, I'm more about people than loot. It's far easier to help a person gear up, then to try to change their attitude, so when I see rare weapons and armor, I'm usually not as impressed as others are - because I don't know their story. Loot gets me thinking about the experience of going through the necessary steps of getting it though. And I'm far more open minded about FFXIV's achievements than I am about FFXI. Except perhaps Garuda weapons with the BLM exploit.

    I will look more fondly on my normal Quality Centurion's Sword from FFXI and my Joyeuse than any of the epic loot other people got out of that game - because it's more about the experience. I really do hope they make Weapon racks in 2.0

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Sorry for the triple post. I had a lot addressed to me here, and in order to prevent confused I wanted to break it up somehow.
    (1)

Page 9 of 11 FirstFirst ... 7 8 9 10 11 LastLast