Can we get an idea on what to expect from the open world in version 2? (A bit long)

[DarthTaru]

Actually Ruetlor. While I would normally agree with you that some of the things that I have listed should be obvious and easily completed, my experience within video games has taught me never to assume such for the sake of the content itself will be at risk if you do not mention it.

I'd also like to assert, as a manner of opinion, that a lot of what we have in the game meets some of those issues, but does not contain it's balancing factors, and therefore, the virtue is not seen as a benefit, or is simply overlooked due to not being substantial enough.



Funny how eight years ago a linkshell used that exact same excuse while using a third party program they ultimately sold to RMT companies for grand after years of 'being better at claiming'.

Given the history of Ground Kings, there's absolutely no way I'll respect such a claim like the one you just made, and saying as much makes you suspect, in my eyes.

'The claim for fame' system is toxic and heavily encourages bots, grief tactics, etc. The Rare EX or our U/U system only works now when the item had plentiful alternatives, and never worked for HNMs that had a monopoly on certain bests in slot. If the system really worked, Ground Kings wouldn't be force pop today.

I am already predicting a backlash for the manner Avatars will be claimed for Free Company use, we don't need to add more fuel to that fire. However, if they're inteligent and make HNM drops side-grades to other items obtained through different means (So that there is a selection of items to obtain rather than a single best in slot.) Then it's possible to keep a system like Sandworm or other, roaming HNM systems in place. However at the very least stationary ones should have a measure of abuse control applied.

I just don't have the same hysteria over bots that other people do. My HNM linkshell didn't use bots in XI and we did fine. We lost a lot of Dragon's Aery claims but got the majority of Tiamat and Cerb for at least a year stretch. Honestly, I just think a lot (not all) of the people with an over the top bot phobia just really sucked at claiming. Actually, I suspect they just sucked at killing.

I think back to my days spent in XI and remember most of the most vocal players on this issue were people from linkshells who never even went to HNM camps and wouldn't have been able to kill them if they had. It wasn't that all of them were horrible. They were just unmotivated and since an HNM claim wouldn't fall into their laps wrapped in a bow they only wanted to blame bots. This is my personal experience so when I see all of these people here with what I think are irrational claims about bots I am forced to draw the same conclusions.

The honest truth of the matter is I would rather have to suffer and work against bots than play in an instanced WoW clone. My linkshell is very capable. We have very capable players. We're also small, some of us have conflicting play times, sometimes we find ourselves stuck at 7/8 until very late at night, sometimes we've had to fight Ifrit Extreme with mules in party until an 8th arrives, and a signification portion of our LS list will be inactive until 2.0. We're also on Aegis.

There are Japanese linkshells on Aegis with great skill and they also have seemingly ten times our numbers without, it seems, any great sacrifice in the over all quality of their LS. Were 2.0 to launch tomorrow with all the open world content I want to see, my linkshell and the 2 or 3 other capable NA endgame linkshells (with similar size and structure as our own) would get absolutely steamrolled on claim. That doesn't matter to me. That's a challenge and a struggle i'm willing to brave and ultimately overcome because that is the game I want to play. If we're overwhelmed at first by these emerging JP juggernauts I won't be coming to the forums to whine and cry about the open world system. We'll simply scrap for what we can get, grow our LS, and make sure we get our slice of the pie.

We'll rise to whatever occasion we have to. We overcome the game. We don't let the game overcome us. That's why we want open world. Myself and everyone else in this thread. That and a thousand other reasons.

I would rather have to fight for every crumb in an open world MMO than rule with world first and server first instances any day every day.
It's boring. It gets stale. It's a game on tracks.
That's a single player game. It doesn't matter how fun Mass Effect is. I can't play Mass Effect and experience the SAME EXACT THING fifty billion times and enjoy it. That's what an instance is.

Not for me.

I want to watch people wipe and be ready to claim. I want to have to claim under less than ideal conditions. I want my LS to fight its ass off to make sure we don't wipe in front of someone else. I want to overcome through the skill and strength of my LS the most trying MPK attempts while we're on the brink of failure and win despite it.

That's an MMO.

Addressing the bot issue is IMO addressed through addressing the pop system.
Give future Tiamats enough spawn locations way off the beaten path that an entire linkshell can not sit waiting for them with a kill alliance in one place and a bot at the ready. Or make every mob in the game, from a boar in some remote corner of the world to a marmot squirrel 2 feet outside Uldah's gate, a potential place holder for an HNM.

Make the claim reliant on who can find them and who can muster an alliance the fastest.

There are plenty of solutions short of throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[Limonconcon]

I just don't have the same hysteria over bots that other people do. My HNM linkshell didn't use bots in XI and we did fine. We lost a lot of Dragon's Aery claims but got the majority of Tiamat and Cerb for at least a year stretch. Honestly, I just think a lot (not all) of the people with an over the top bot phobia just really sucked at claiming. Actually, I suspect they just sucked at killing.

I think back to my days spent in XI and remember most of the most vocal players on this issue were people from linkshells who never even went to HNM camps and wouldn't have been able to kill them if they had. It wasn't that all of them were horrible. They were just unmotivated and since an HNM claim wouldn't fall into their laps wrapped in a bow they only wanted to blame bots. This is my personal experience so when I see all of these people here with what I think are irrational claims about bots I am forced to draw the same conclusions.

The honest truth of the matter is I would rather have to suffer and work against bots than play in an instanced WoW clone. My linkshell is very capable. We have very capable players. We're also small, some of us have conflicting play times, sometimes we find ourselves stuck at 7/8 until very late at night, sometimes we've had to fight Ifrit Extreme with mules in party until an 8th arrives, and a signification portion of our LS list will be inactive until 2.0. We're also on Aegis.

There are Japanese linkshells on Aegis with great skill and they also have seemingly ten times our numbers without, it seems, any great sacrifice in the over all quality of their LS. Were 2.0 to launch tomorrow with all the open world content I want to see, my linkshell and the 2 or 3 other capable NA endgame linkshells (with similar size and structure as our own) would get absolutely steamrolled on claim. That doesn't matter to me. That's a challenge and a struggle i'm willing to brave and ultimately overcome because that is the game I want to play. If we're overwhelmed at first by these emerging JP juggernauts I won't be coming to the forums to whine and cry about the open world system. We'll simply scrap for what we can get, grow our LS, and make sure we get our slice of the pie.

We'll rise to whatever occasion we have to. We overcome the game. We don't let the game overcome us. That's why we want open world. Myself and everyone else in this thread. That and a thousand other reasons.

I would rather have to fight for every crumb in an open world MMO than rule with world first and server first instances any day every day.
It's boring. It gets stale. It's a game on tracks.
That's a single player game. It doesn't matter how fun Mass Effect is. I can't play Mass Effect and experience the SAME EXACT THING fifty billion times and enjoy it. That's what an instance is.

Not for me.

I want to watch people wipe and be ready to claim. I want to have to claim under less than ideal conditions. I want my LS to fight its ass off to make sure we don't wipe in front of someone else. I want to overcome through the skill and strength of my LS the most trying MPK attempts while we're on the brink of failure and win despite it.

That's an MMO.

Addressing the bot issue is IMO addressed through addressing the pop system.
Give future Tiamats enough spawn locations way off the beaten path that an entire linkshell can not sit waiting for them with a kill alliance in one place and a bot at the ready. Or make every mob in the game, from a boar in some remote corner of the world to a marmot squirrel 2 feet outside Uldah's gate, a potential place holder for an HNM.

Make the claim reliant on who can find them and who can muster an alliance the fastest.

There are plenty of solutions short of throwing the baby out with the bath water.

/clap

I was glad to read your post...
I was in zEUs Linkshell in Midgardsormr for about 3 yrs and we never used bots, but we still manage to get the HNMs we wanted to.
Dammm I miss those fun in game years...
And the HNM solution that you gave is one of many that I have. HNMS can also pop randomly anywhere in a whole zone...
People dont understand that claiming an HNM is not as hard as fighting the HNM...
And Im so sure that if they put a Nidhogg or an aspid in an instanced most of the ppl that complain about not been able to have a chance at claiming wouldnt be able to kill them anyways and complain about that also.
And I dnt even wanna say Vrtra with all the adds, Tiamat or the almost impossible Absolute virtue (we have pop him about 20-30 times) we never even got him to 70%... even after the strategy video released by the devs...

[Hyrist]

Not for me.

I want to watch people wipe and be ready to claim. I want to have to claim under less than ideal conditions. I want my LS to fight its ass off to make sure we don't wipe in front of someone else. I want to overcome through the skill and strength of my LS the most trying MPK attempts while we're on the brink of failure and win despite it.

That's an MMO.

Addressing the bot issue is IMO addressed through addressing the pop system.
Give future Tiamats enough spawn locations way off the beaten path that an entire linkshell can not sit waiting for them with a kill alliance in one place and a bot at the ready. Or make every mob in the game, from a boar in some remote corner of the world to a marmot squirrel 2 feet outside Uldah's gate, a potential place holder for an HNM.

Make the claim reliant on who can find them and who can muster an alliance the fastest.

There are plenty of solutions short of throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I agree with all but the bolded.

The playerbase, what we have of it, is already devided enough between this so called 'casual vs hardcore' where I just see it as an issue of having Varied content.

But within hardcore content lies a very wrong player-created conception that, honestly, I would love to get stamped out. And that's the feeling of unfriendly rivalry. It's fine to sit and wait for a group to fail so that you may get your shot. But MPKing to try to make them do so? Not cool at all in my book. You might find it exciting, for me, I want to go on a murdering rampage when attempts like that are made.

Competitiveness is ok when it's done with good sportsmanship. The idea of having varied spawn locations varying claim conditions, things that keep the game interesting. But never should the players feel as if they have to stab one another in the back just to get a fair share at the challenge, and the loot. And on the other side of the coin, it should not be possible for those that are greedy to be able to monopolize content so others cannot get at it. If some Noob Company tries at a HNM, even if they are destined to fail, they should get the fair shot to try. Even if that means a true endgame shell-er Company in this case, can be sitting and waiting in the sidelines for it. But at that point the feeling should be. "Ok, we can root these guys on, but be prepared to claim if they wipe."

That's the sort of environment I want encouraged. And while a lot of that can rely on the playerbase's conduct, the gameplay itself can enforce prevention of the worst case scenario.

Call me carebear, but comradeship and good will is a huge theme of a Final Fantasy game. I would like that theme to be supported as best as possible.

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Just to clarify, and because you start your post with my name (albeit mispelled): The person you quote, and to whom I imagine you direct the attack contained in the second paragraph of my quotation, is someone other than me. Please be careful not to (accidentally, I suppose, but equally carelessly) taint my good name, Hyrist.

R

My apologies, Rutelor. It was not my intention to sully your name, rather to save on posting space by condensing repeated posts together so as not to spam the thread. The difficulty of course is that I'm trying to fit posts within tight timeline constraints.

I shall try to better separate different discussions/subject matters when I cover more than one in a post. (Is this any better?)

Additionally, let me commend you in so far retaining a constructive and respectful tone in your responses and posts - something that even I am guilty at failing to do. It is most appreciated and helps keep the tone of the discussion positive. I like it a lot, please keep it up!

[Rokien]

I agree with all but the bolded.

The playerbase, what we have of it, is already devided enough between this so called 'casual vs hardcore' where I just see it as an issue of having Varied content.

But within hardcore content lies a very wrong player-created conception that, honestly, I would love to get stamped out. And that's the feeling of unfriendly rivalry. It's fine to sit and wait for a group to fail so that you may get your shot. But MPKing to try to make them do so? Not cool at all in my book. You might find it exciting, for me, I want to go on a murdering rampage when attempts like that are made.

Competitiveness is ok when it's done with good sportsmanship. The idea of having varied spawn locations varying claim conditions, things that keep the game interesting. But never should the players feel as if they have to stab one another in the back just to get a fair share at the challenge, and the loot. And on the other side of the coin, it should not be possible for those that are greedy to be able to monopolize content so others cannot get at it. If some Noob Company tries at a HNM, even if they are destined to fail, they should get the fair shot to try. Even if that means a true endgame shell-er Company in this case, can be sitting and waiting in the sidelines for it. But at that point the feeling should be. "Ok, we can root these guys on, but be prepared to claim if they wipe."

That's the sort of environment I want encouraged. And while a lot of that can rely on the playerbase's conduct, the gameplay itself can enforce prevention of the worst case scenario.

Call me carebear, but comradeship and good will is a huge theme of a Final Fantasy game. I would like that theme to be supported as best as possible.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




My apologies, Rutelor. It was not my intention to sully your name, rather to save on posting space by condensing repeated posts together so as not to spam the thread. The difficulty of course is that I'm trying to fit posts within tight timeline constraints.

I shall try to better separate different discussions/subject matters when I cover more than one in a post. (Is this any better?)

Additionally, let me commend you in so far retaining a constructive and respectful tone in your responses and posts - something that even I am guilty at failing to do. It is most appreciated and helps keep the tone of the discussion positive. I like it a lot, please keep it up!

Wow we agree on something o.O?

[Hyrist]

Wow we agree on something o.O?

Why so surprised? It's not the first time, Rokien, if you look in the Lancer Forums you might remember that.

I'm not opposed to all your ideas, as much as I am opposed to your methodology, which is "Fling as much crap to the wall as I can and see what sticks." It's exasperating at best, trolling at worst.

Other than that, it's just a matter of finding the correct balance, compromise, and variety to make this game the most successful. So the idea usually means add more content is ok by me, as opposed to take away content you don't like simply on the grounds that you don't like it.

My dream for the game is a widely dynamic game with differing players each finding their niche that they are both good at, and passionate about. The difficulty with that is doing it in a manner in which these various methods don't overtly clash. It just so happens that the hardcore mentality OFTEN clashes with these ideals. They want to be the best, at everything, they want it obvious they are the best, and they want to hold it over everyone's heads, often in ways that can be considered cruel and rude. I have seen countless examples of how this gouged a huge divide in the FFXI base, and I don't want to see it here. That means the Hardcores are going to have to give up a little in the pride department. Or at the very least be more good-nature-ed about it then they have in the past.

In this situation, it's the monopoly and foul play that needs to be snuffed out. I've already mentioned loot alternatives, but it seems that the crafting system with double and triple melds has that covered, so long as Yoshi makes crafted/melded gear comparable.

People seem to still want things like Abjuration gear, though personally I'd rather see interesting Meteria drop and be trade-able.

Imagine if say, killing a dragon dropped a meteria that occasionally absorbed a specific element of damage on a percentage determined by the tier of meteria? That boss would now have continuous value on top of the U/U gear he drops, and as it's a consumable, there will always be a market for it. A balanced market if the Dragon cannot be monopolized.

[Rutelor]

Actually Ruetlor. While I would normally agree with you that some of the things that I have listed should be obvious and easily completed, my experience within video games has taught me never to assume such for the sake of the content itself will be at risk if you do not mention it.

[...snip...]

Given the history of Ground Kings, there's absolutely no way I'll respect such a claim like the one you just made, and saying as much makes you suspect, in my eyes.

Just to clarify, and because you start your post with my name (albeit mispelled): The person you quote, and to whom I imagine you direct the attack contained in the second paragraph of my quotation, is someone other than me. Please be careful not to (accidentally, I suppose, but equally carelessly) taint my good name, Hyrist.

R

[Arcell]

Other than free roaming NMs (I don't think they deserve the title of HNMs) there's only two imperfect open-world events besides the monotonously repetitive guildleves: Behest and Caravans.

Just wanted to point out that this is simply not true. We do have four Strongholds full of enemies and coffers, three of which have NMs waiting at the end. Also for the lower in level we have Shposhae, a fully open-world dungeon, and more than a dozen lower level NMs. I'm not saying it's the best things we've ever seen but it IS open-world content.

The devs have stated that there will be more open-world content and it's not like they're re-doing the maps just to look pretty. They'll fill those maps with things to do, instanced or not. However that being said, it does seem like a lot of the content is shifting to instanced despite the loud "discussions" in opposition. The community has spoken at length about this many times and still the devs are doing mostly what they want to and what they feel is right for the game. If instanced content really kills the game for you then perhaps FFXIV is not for you, even in 2.0. I would suggest people take the time to consider how much this all really matters to them and evaluate their choice to keep playing.

[Rutelor]

Just wanted to point out that this is simply not true. We do have four Strongholds full of enemies and coffers, three of which have NMs waiting at the end. Also for the lower in level we have Shposhae, a fully open-world dungeon, and more than a dozen lower level NMs. I'm not saying it's the best things we've ever seen but it IS open-world content.

You're absolutely right in counting my omissions, Arcell, and I apologize for the oversight. Strongholds probably slipped out of my mind because I have so many issues with the nature of the combat therein. The spammy, confused, and convoluted style of the combat they generate is, alas, not to my liking; I find it to be awfully fast-paced, to the point of becoming perfunctory.

Shposhae is another matter. I am sorry I left it out of my mentions, because I really think this is a nicely built dungeon for its level, one that exists in the open world to boot, and one with very nice mechanics as well. Thanks for reminding me. Alas, I haven't run it in ages, since I only have one combat class that remains below the suggested level for this area. The only things that I missed in there were: a bit of beastman activity, and perhaps more quests that took you through the hurdles and into the difficult corners of the dungeon for their completion. In addition, I'd also like for chests to have random spawn spots, rather than being fixed.

The devs have stated that there will be more open-world content and it's not like they're re-doing the maps just to look pretty. They'll fill those maps with things to do, instanced or not. However that being said, it does seem like a lot of the content is shifting to instanced despite the loud "discussions" in opposition. The community has spoken at length about this many times and still the devs are doing mostly what they want to and what they feel is right for the game. If instanced content really kills the game for you then perhaps FFXIV is not for you, even in 2.0. I would suggest people take the time to consider how much this all really matters to them and evaluate their choice to keep playing.

This might be true, Arcell, but I still would like for some sort of a statement from them. Even if it says what you mentioned, but in their words, lending them a certain official, committing flavor. It's not that I don't appreciate your mentioning what you say, which is also what I would like to believe, but alas, coming from you it's no less a conjecture than when it comes from my wishful thinking. Learning within a single week that the Primals' fights and the Skirmish events were, once again, relying on instances was a bit of a downer for many that, like me, long for a rich, open, and challenging open world.

Again thanks for pointing out my mistakes. :-)

R

[Viritess]

You're absolutely right in counting my omissions, Arcell, and I apologize for the oversight. Strongholds probably slipped out of my mind because I have so many issues with the nature of the combat therein. The spammy, confused, and convoluted style of the combat they generate is, alas, not to my liking; I find it to be awfully fast-paced, to the point of becoming perfunctory.

Shposhae is another matter. I am sorry I left it out of my mentions, because I really think this is a nicely built dungeon for its level, one that exists in the open world to boot, and one with very nice mechanics as well. Thanks for reminding me. Alas, I haven't run it in ages, since I only have one combat class that remains below the suggested level for this area. The only things that I missed in there were: a bit of beastman activity, and perhaps more quests that took you through the hurdles and into the difficult corners of the dungeon for their completion. In addition, I'd also like for chests to have random spawn spots, rather than being fixed.

I would bring to your responce one detail. It is in general quite difficult to pose a "challenge" in an open area without the large amount of spawns. due to the unlimited amount of people you can bring. And with extreamly random spawnpoints you may end up hurting smaller groups of players, thus requiring huge groups to make it through.

I also like searching my way through static areas. decending down many levels of dungeons. But for how their designed vs how we, as a gaming community actualy use and defeat them its a no wonder Companies have moved towards instancing to have a better controll on how to tune areas.

Look at CN, theres so much there you can't even load them all. because it needed to be even harder.

[vax]

In 2.0 the only open world content will be the main cities, then everything will be instanced.