Can we get an idea on what to expect from the open world in version 2? (A bit long)

[Rutelor]

But that's like saying you can enter harder dungeon once a week or that you can enter a primal battle after 15 minute cooldown.

There's no difference there - the attempt is set in stone, the loot is based off of a terribly contrived RNG. I get the concept that rare gear should be physically rare, but instead of making it based on luck and leave the players to impose their own loot priority system, give them a secondary system that encourages players to work together to get what they want both individually and collectively.

The old systems weren't good. They're just nostalgic now that we're past them.

That's not to say throw the baby out with the bath water,as someone suggested. But the baby is 10 years old now and that's past time for it to be potty trained.

Hyrist, I believe that people that came to hate the delay systems, reacted that way basically out of impatience. They wanted immediate returns, ergo hated the wait; they consolidated in a segment of our population that at some point decided these systems were bad; however that assessment was just based on their impatient emotional reaction, not a scientific analysis. Thus was born the urban legend that goes along the lines that the luck-based, RGN-mechanics were superseded and obsolete. This was helped by the proliferation of low-challenge, almost-immediate-satisfaction games where this population segment was further incubated.

But this is a game, not a lifestyle, nor a political system*. And luck has a place in it. A complete, strict meritocracy, one based on skill, would end up either making the game grueling, unforgiving and hardcore, or overrun with elite gear.

The obsession of many with discarding time-proven mechanics, just because they are what they perceive as "old" is misguided, in my opinion. Backgammon, Parcheesi, Mahjong, Bridge, are games based on age-old mechanics, all of them rely heavily on luck and are still fervidly played and considered by millions every bit as challenging as they were when they were played for the first time, in at least two of those cases, almost a millennium ago.

R

*Even political systems that aspire to fairness, like ours, include lotteries and random number decisions in several of their decisions. Ever heard of an immigration lottery, or a subsidized housing lottery?

[Miliant]

It displeases me, Miliant, that you so much misunderstood my OP that you felt the need to react to it aggressively. Allow me to clarify, bit by bit, so that, perhaps, you come to realize at the end that we might very well be on the same side of the issue:

We will never see eye to eye, and here's why:

I also want me and my friends to find a home that feels like the spiritual successor of the world of Vana'diel, which we loved. I just want a game with diverse avenues for diverse tastes.

You want FFXIV to be like FFXI. I don't, because there's absolutely no need for it to be. FFXI is still alive and kicking. As a matter of fact, you could just run them concurrently while on one of those thrilling HNM camping sessions.

[Hyrist]

Hyrist, I believe that people that came to hate the delay systems, reacted that way basically out of impatience. They wanted immediate returns, ergo hated the wait; they consolidated in a segment of our population that at some point decided these systems were bad; however that assessment was just based on their impatient emotional reaction, not a scientific analysis. Thus was born the urban legend that goes along the lines that the luck-based, RGN-mechanics were superseded and obsolete. This was helped by the proliferation of low-challenge, almost-immediate-satisfaction games where this population segment was further incubated.

That's an interesting theory, but it's only one perspective, not actual fact. The divide between the playerbase runs far deeper than simply being tired of being strung along by the nose by random luck or overly long grinds. By creating such barriers of artificial difficulty it became a matter of 'who has the most free time', and issue so profound, that Tanaka overcompensated for it by creating the fatigue system, and thus alienated those with more time.

The key here is to create a balance between progression and luck. Even if it takes an individual a long time to accomplish something, if they can visibly see their progress they'll usually continue along. We're effectively mixing age-old mechanics together. The Donkey and the Carrot, and the Skinner Box. Between the two, you should be able to get what you wan't with the proper helping of determination.

But this is a game, not a lifestyle, nor a political system*. And luck has a place in it. A complete, strict meritocracy, one based on skill, would end up either making the game grueling, unforgiving and hardcore, or overrun with elite gear.

I agree. But Balance must be struck between blind luck and steady determination. Keeping issues about 'elite gear' flooding the game at bay is done easily by things already in progress like the Relic Weapons. Those are things that require both a bit of luck and a good helping of determination. It's a long term goal that players can work towards and if it's not pleasing to others there are alternatives that, while not the best in slot, will be more than serviceable and are not to far behind to be looked at as a determent.

The obsession of many with discarding time-proven mechanics, just because they are what they perceive as "old" is misguided, in my opinion. Backgammon, Parcheesi, Mahjong, Bridge, are games based on age-old mechanics, all of them rely heavily on luck and are still fervidly played and considered by millions every bit as challenging as they were when they were played for the first time, in at least two of those cases, almost a millennium ago.

R

There's a logical flaw there, however, comparing a game that is simplistic in its nature to one as encompassing as a Massive multiplayer game.

In Backgammon, Parchizi, etc, you saw the roll, you knew the game, and there was little else to the game besides an enjoyable time spent. And no matter how many times you played, or how long you played it, you only payed for the game out of the box.

Here, time is quite literally money. You pay every month to be here, you not allowed to see the dice for many events, melding being the exception (And oddly, I find it more thrilling to blow up gear than it is go to do a raid. At least then I'm seeing the gamble in front of my eyes, instead of the wool.)

Given the fact that money is invested, time is invested. Some manner of progress for the work return should be alloted. I'm not talking instant gratification. That actualy is a falacy. People would LIKE instant gratification, but what they truely want or need is the sense of steady progress. They want to see that the time and money spent is responded to by a sense of forward momentum. Once that stalls out, due to exhaustion of content or exhaustion of paitence, then you see subscriptions lost.

Keeping people engaged for the long term is the goal here. Doing it with only a lottery system is going to exhaust the people with bad luck. So, you merge the luck and progress thing together, giving two courses to take to reach your goal. Doing so will keep a wider variety of players engaged. Will it speed progress compared to blind luck? Only for those of the worst kind of luck.

And when gear is all said and done, there will be other distractions, such as PvP, and the Golden Saucer(tentative name). Plenty of other distractions to keep you entertained while you wait for new goals, or just when you need a break from your current goal.

We'll have to keep an eye on how it all plays out together in the long run. I for one am vary intrigued about the future of FFXIV, and am not all that concerned that the mechanics won't pan out properly. Most of my conversation here is academic, and I have good faith that Yoshi-P will get the job done right. It might take a few bumps along the road but I'm willing to accept that, especially given all we have gone through already.

The main thing that concerns me is the tone this community will take for the course of its life. I hope it to be a more upbeat one than Final Fantasy XI was in many circumstances, and some of the mechanics I suggested can insure that.

But if the player-base adapts a more friendly nature due to other things implemented in the game, then they won't be needed.

[Tsubarta]

Hyrist did you play XI? If you did I want to ask you...if you saw someone with a D.Ring (came from kings) what did you think? VS what do you think when you see someone with an Ifrit weapon? If not then nvm hehe

One botted, the other got lucky.

[Rutelor]

By creating such barriers of artificial difficulty it became a matter of 'who has the most free time' [...snip...]

This is a game, Hyrst; praytell what aspect of difficulty in it is not artificial.

The key here is to create a balance between progression and luck. Even if it takes an individual a long time to accomplish something, if they can visibly see their progress they'll usually continue along. We're effectively mixing age-old mechanics together. The Donkey and the Carrot, and the Skinner Box. Between the two, you should be able to get what you wan't with the proper helping of determination.

That sounds more like a pitch for the American Dream than a game. I think, and many in the game design sector agree, that randomly generated numbers are an effective equalizer, as long as the probability is kept at a healthy range. I don't want a game that is mainly hard luck. What's "healthy," of course, is what's at stake here.

I agree. But Balance must be struck between blind luck and steady determination. Keeping issues about 'elite gear' flooding the game at bay is done easily by things already in progress like the Relic Weapons. Those are things that require both a bit of luck and a good helping of determination. It's a long term goal that players can work towards and if it's not pleasing to others there are alternatives that, while not the best in slot, will be more than serviceable and are not to far behind to be looked at as a determent.

Total agreement here. And for the most, we agree on most everything down below. Except for the fact that I don't really think any MMO player plays the game with the hope of beating it, finishing it and getting out of subscription charges. I do agree that for the investment a considerable amount of interesting and challenging new content should be constantly forthcoming.

Also, you and I must have had radically different experiences in FFXI. To me the community in the server I played most of those years was a model of civility and niceness.

Ah, yes, also I don't see the logical flaw that you attempt to pinpoint in the starting paragraph immediately below. My point was that you could have strategically and intellectually challenging games that included luck as an ingredient, that it's not some sort of obsolete mechanic we have outgrown.

There's a logical flaw there, however, comparing a game that is simplistic in its nature to one as encompassing as a Massive multiplayer game.

In Backgammon, Parchizi, etc, you saw the roll, you knew the game, and there was little else to the game besides an enjoyable time spent. And no matter how many times you played, or how long you played it, you only payed for the game out of the box.

Here, time is quite literally money. You pay every month to be here, you not allowed to see the dice for many events, melding being the exception (And oddly, I find it more thrilling to blow up gear than it is go to do a raid. At least then I'm seeing the gamble in front of my eyes, instead of the wool.)

Given the fact that money is invested, time is invested. Some manner of progress for the work return should be alloted. I'm not talking instant gratification. That actualy is a falacy. People would LIKE instant gratification, but what they truely want or need is the sense of steady progress. They want to see that the time and money spent is responded to by a sense of forward momentum. Once that stalls out, due to exhaustion of content or exhaustion of paitence, then you see subscriptions lost.

Keeping people engaged for the long term is the goal here. Doing it with only a lottery system is going to exhaust the people with bad luck. So, you merge the luck and progress thing together, giving two courses to take to reach your goal. Doing so will keep a wider variety of players engaged. Will it speed progress compared to blind luck? Only for those of the worst kind of luck.

And when gear is all said and done, there will be other distractions, such as PvP, and the Golden Saucer(tentative name). Plenty of other distractions to keep you entertained while you wait for new goals, or just when you need a break from your current goal.

We'll have to keep an eye on how it all plays out together in the long run. I for one am vary intrigued about the future of FFXIV, and am not all that concerned that the mechanics won't pan out properly. Most of my conversation here is academic, and I have good faith that Yoshi-P will get the job done right. It might take a few bumps along the road but I'm willing to accept that, especially given all we have gone through already.

The main thing that concerns me is the tone this community will take for the course of its life. I hope it to be a more upbeat one than Final Fantasy XI was in many circumstances, and some of the mechanics I suggested can insure that.

But if the player-base adapts a more friendly nature due to other things implemented in the game, then they won't be needed.

All around, however, I've come to realize that you and I are mostly on the same side. I just don't think the need for developers to provide a constant stream of content is new, or modern. I also don't believe in the underlining implication of your writing, that somehow what made FFXI compelling (for me, evidently not for you) is something obsolete or superseded. And I don't think luck was a capital part of it.

R

[NumenarMithrandir]

After playing so many years of FFXI and FFXIV since day 1 CE release, I have been happy to sit back and watch how content unfolds on this game. I have enjoyed what Yoshi has done with it, and in the long run, before 2.0/2.0/beyond 2.0 I feel everything will come out exactly how most want it to. The game is becoming more challenging as it progresses, content is forming, and the player base is growing back steadily. I don't feel that it will ever be the exact same as FFXI, sadly.. however FFXIV is a great game, can only get better, and I have high hopes for current staff working on it. I'll watch it all play out, I know it will be enjoyable in the end and bring me the same FFXI did for the six years I played it.

[Viritess]

You're absolutely right in counting my omissions, Arcell, and I apologize for the oversight. Strongholds probably slipped out of my mind because I have so many issues with the nature of the combat therein. The spammy, confused, and convoluted style of the combat they generate is, alas, not to my liking; I find it to be awfully fast-paced, to the point of becoming perfunctory.

Shposhae is another matter. I am sorry I left it out of my mentions, because I really think this is a nicely built dungeon for its level, one that exists in the open world to boot, and one with very nice mechanics as well. Thanks for reminding me. Alas, I haven't run it in ages, since I only have one combat class that remains below the suggested level for this area. The only things that I missed in there were: a bit of beastman activity, and perhaps more quests that took you through the hurdles and into the difficult corners of the dungeon for their completion. In addition, I'd also like for chests to have random spawn spots, rather than being fixed.

I would bring to your responce one detail. It is in general quite difficult to pose a "challenge" in an open area without the large amount of spawns. due to the unlimited amount of people you can bring. And with extreamly random spawnpoints you may end up hurting smaller groups of players, thus requiring huge groups to make it through.

I also like searching my way through static areas. decending down many levels of dungeons. But for how their designed vs how we, as a gaming community actualy use and defeat them its a no wonder Companies have moved towards instancing to have a better controll on how to tune areas.

Look at CN, theres so much there you can't even load them all. because it needed to be even harder.

[RedAffinity]

I'd like to also support OP and this thread.

To clarify where I stand on the topic, open world content doesn't have to be 3-day spawn on a Notorious Monster where 1 person or group can take claim. Open world content can also be achieved similarly to how Leves work. An 'instance' within an open world.

[Shurrikhan]

In all my experiences across different game forums, I feel like I'd be both happy and obligated to direct 60% of a given site's posters (though, perhaps not so oddly, only perhaps 10% here) to the discussion between Hyrist and Rutelor -- "This is what an intelligent discussion looks like," -- and hope for a chance in osmosis of mentality.
---------------
On subject though, in the balance between "tried-and-true" and "modern" mechanics, a point of note is that either becomes an aged work the moment a new functional methodology is used. But more importantly, the methodology does not have to tie itself in any way to the systems that act as a means for that methodology. The feel of a game like FFXI does come from its mechanics, be it RNG-heavy or grind-heavy or whatever other general 'tools of the trade' come to mind, but they aren't an exclusive option. A game of the same feel, or designed on the same niche of its types of players' preferences, can be accomplished by any system, whether it be 'old' or 'modern' or far better yet -- actually original, and made to fit. Very few things considered mutually exclusive or opposite ends of the same spectrum have to be, if only one does not overprice the thought required to tailor a solution.

Granted, many of the things mentioned here -- core bases like 'fairness' -- go well before either systems or methodologies, and in their cases this doesn't apply.

Sorry for the rant. I guess it's just something that had been bugging me for some time now.

[DarthTaru]

For god sakes, yes. You're overgeneralizing.

What cause mob monopolization was in part the horrific spawn rates yes, but also what effectively lead to window camping.

... And so how on earth am I generalizing when I say that HNM drops and HNM `monopolization` were a result of linkshell motivation and organization?

By no means, what soever should any reasonable person be on call at ungodly hours of the morning just so they can go and farm a mob who has unique Best In Slots - period.

And so what does this have to do with anything?
I want to just begin before you take offense in stating that I have no doubts you're a great person with good intentions here. That said, when you say things like this I sort of get the feeling that you've never been in an organized and effective endgame linkshell. At least not one that was fitting for you. Based on how jaded you seem to be regarding HNM `monopolization` I'll assume not one at all.

A linkshell is not an individual. A linkshell, obviously, is the sum of all of its individuals, individuals who will be online and play at differing times, with differing availability. If an HNM has a a window that is two days long, that does not mean an individual had to stay awake for 48 hours straight staring at a bush where a Dragon might pop. An `individual` does not kill an HNM; a linkshell does. If Tiamat pops and you are not online that is fine. Your linkshell kills it and one of your friends gets the drop. You log on and are happy to hear the news.

If you're not online and neither are any of your friends, another linkshell will obviously kill it and you go about your business and in 3 days when the window opens again the possibility of a pop emerges as something your linkshell might be able to do that's outside whatever schedule it has set.

You, the individual, didn't have to be online for every Tiamat, every Cerb, every KB, every KV, every this or every that to attain a drop, because your linkshell exists when you're offline just as much as it does when you are online.
Eventually you're online for a pop, a claim, and a kill, and eventually, by virtue of being a member of your linkshell, you acquire a shiny new drop.

So this acting like you had to stay awake for 72 hours straight at a time to kill an HNM, or compete with people who were doing so, isn't based in reality.

That's artifical difficulty, not ACTUAL difficulty. There was a reason why people 'unmotivated'. The spawn conditions on these monsters were completely unreasonable by any important standard, and defending said system by saying "Oh it's the Casual's fault" is infuriating. - a system that says you have to be at the ready 24-7 for a video game and be willing to spend 12+ hours at on sitting and/or rotate shifts. That is wrong on a humanitarian level - not a question of 'if you're dedicated enough.' You flatly should not have to be dedicated to that point because it is detrimental to real life.

Again, you're looking at this from, with all due respect, an entirely selfish and self centered point of view. You do not need to be online 24/7. Your linkshell, however, needs to be active enough and large enough to be able to cover a fair amount of the day to participate in certain window opportunities. Now you might say "well that isn't fair that you need a big or organized or active linkshell" but that is the point of these monsters. That is their audience, so to speak.

Ultimately, where I suspect our main disagreement arises from is in you seem to believe that all content needs to be at the ready and easily attainable and accessibly at all times. What an MMO needs is to have a good mix of content that is readily available and accessibly and plenty of things to keep people enjoying themselves every day with added content that isn't to break the routine.

HNM's are supposed to be rare. They're supposed to have long windows. They're supposed to be relevant and sought after long after their released, rather than farmed to death on instant or 1 hour pop timers until they're no longer interesting like (not that they're HNMs) Dodore, Great Buffalo, etc.

"Me, me, me" is what i'm taking away from your posts. What you seemingly do not understand is that HNMs are not about you, they're about the world, they would be about Eorzea, they're about the environment, they're about rarity, prestige, etc.

If you have plenty of instanced dungeons, plenty of Limbus, plenty of this, plenty of that, to log on to every day, for whatever time you can and want to dedicate to the game, why on earth would it offend you so much that there are other things that will not be there waiting for you? That there are things beyond that to aspire towards?

There was PLENTY of great gear in FFXI. It isn't like you were the laughing stock of Whitegate and completely incapable of venturing out into the wildnerness if you didn't have HNM drops from head to toe.

I just don't understand why if people have plenty of things to do, and there's plenty of fun content in the game, that they would be so offended that there were other things, greater things, higher level things, that they could not yet do and wasn't laid at their feet wrapped with a bow.

My HNM linkshell in XI did plenty. We also couldn't beat Absolute Virtue...We couldn't beat Pandemonium Warden... yet the existence of these mobs didn't at all offend me - It motivated me and inspired my curiosity.