@Devs: PLD/GLD and poor AoE enmity management. Intentional design choice?

[Ronik]

It's no secret that WAR is strictly superior to PLD for AoE threat management. Steel Cyclone/Overpower/Vengeance/Whirlwind are significantly better AoE threat tools than Paladin's War Drum/AoE Flash. One only needs to take a PLD into a stronghold to see this discrepancy in action. My question is, why is this the case? Is it an intentional design decision that PLD is a single-target tank only?

If we are meant to be the premier, specialized "Tank" of FFXIV, why is that we are so woefully inadequate in multi-mob situations? I can understand that you want WAR to have it's niche in AoE damage/AoE crowd control, but in effect this just makes Paladin a liability in Stronghold type situations. Since WAR can be an effective tank for BOTH AoE and Single Target, shouldn't Paladin as well?

I have prepared some reasonable solutions which I think address this problem. This may seem like wish-listing, but honestly I think this is a fundamental design issue with Paladins. Here are some changes that would go a long way in making PLD more universally useful:

» Give us Circle Slash back with a decent threat modifier and/or an Enmity/Accuracy combo bonus. We badly need an AoE weaponskill, and since this was already programmed/animated it would be a simple fix.

» Buff War Drum (Lower CD or increased Effect). As it stands, it simply offers too little enmity on too long of a CD. A single War Drum will almost never pull hate back off a WHM who was simply doing his job healing you, nevermind a DD who pressed an aoe button (or, god forbid, a BLM).

» Add a passive trait that has a chance to reduce the cooldown on [War Drum] or [Flash] whenever we successful block an attack. This would create some interesting options for the player: we could pop Divine Veil/Outmaneuver either for mitigation or to spam War Drums.

» Add a passive trait which reflects or inflicts some amount of holy damage whenever we block. This turns Divine Veil/Outmaneuver into potential AoE threat tools, and fits with the overall theme of Paladins.

» Make Phalanx AoE. Simple and effective. It could be argued that Phalanx is our version of Overpower, yet Phalanx does not have any special properties whatsoever. At the very least, shouldn't this be a high threat move?

Again, these are just suggestions, and there are countless ways to give Paladins improved AoE threat tools. Of course, it may be the developer intention that Paladins specialize in single-target tanking, but I find that notion to be problematic given the versatility and damage output of Warriors in comparison. If Paladin's have no AoE damage output whatsoever, can we at least have AoE threat so that we aren't forced to go Warrior in those situations?

Thanks for reading.

[SwordCoheir]

Again, these are just suggestions, and there are countless ways to give Paladins improved AoE threat tools. Of course, it may be the developer intention that Paladins specialize in single-target tanking, but I find that notion to be problematic given the versatility and damage output of Warriors in comparison. If Paladin's have no AoE damage output whatsoever, can we at least have AoE threat so that we aren't forced to go Warrior in those situations?

Heck just upping Enmity of Flash/Wardrum and removing the TP and block requirement on Wardrum would be a big improvement.

Adjusting Rampart to where the max hate gained is given to each mob, instead of divided across all mobs would be great too.

[Ronik]

Heck just upping Enmity of Flash/Wardrum and removing the TP and block requirement on Wardrum would be a big improvement.

Adjusting Rampart to where the max hate gained is given to each mob, instead of divided across all mobs would be great too.

Agreed on both points. However, I still feel that we simply require another tool to manage in order to create interesting gameplay for AoE situations. If all we have is Flash/War Drum/Rampart, we're simply hitting three rather long cooldowns whenever they're up.

The Warrior must position himself for overpower, and he can choose to pool TP for Steel Cyclone on demand. Furthermore, he must make the decision of comboing Steel Cyclone or using it alone. These, in my view, are all interesting gameplay choices which introduce a skill component to AoE threat management. It would be great if Paladin had a similar number of options and decisions to make, and some similarly interesting interplay between our many abilities.

[Tman]

Giving Pld's aoe threat would be awesome since as you've said we lack it, sorely. However I highly doubt they will. For me, if I'm asked to AoE tank as a sword and board type, I run in as Gla. Sure Gla is squishier than Pld, but it trumps even War in AoE threat, not so much AoE dmg.

Where War can only really hold 8 things, or more specifically the things SC/WW will hit, a Gla can hold as many things as it has engaged. While War Drums hits only 8 also, Gla can use keen flurry with it, and while Flash only hits 8 also, Rampart builds threat on everything engaged because it's an AoE on the party. Sacred Prism>Cure is another great AoE threat tool, again it builds hate on everything engaged due to AoE on the party rather than dealing dmg. Gla can also use Second Wind, and while it is a healing thus it builds hate on everything engaged, it suffers from the lower enmity modifier, as well as being split across everything engaged. Gla also has access to Leg Sweep, as well as Fire/Fira (and Sanguine Rite so as not to be interrupted) if offense is wanted, but we all know Gla dmg sux lol.

The options are there, and Gla can keep aoe threat against even a War, but War just does it more efficiently, looks good too, and pumps out a ton more dps.

It would be nice if the dev's gave us something similar to Overpower, but based off block and perhaps weaker in dmg, or if they let us parry again. (but alas, pld parry'ing is never going to happen with a shield equipped)

[Ronik]

Giving Pld's aoe threat would be awesome since as you've said we lack it, sorely. However I highly doubt they will. For me, if I'm asked to AoE tank as a sword and board type, I run in as Gla. Sure Gla is squishier than Pld, but it trumps even War in AoE threat, not so much AoE dmg.

Where War can only really hold 8 things, or more specifically the things SC/WW will hit, a Gla can hold as many things as it has engaged. While War Drums hits only 8 also, Gla can use keen flurry with it, and while Flash only hits 8 also, Rampart builds threat on everything engaged because it's an AoE on the party. Sacred Prism>Cure is another great AoE threat tool, again it builds hate on everything engaged due to AoE on the party rather than dealing dmg. Gla can also use Second Wind, and while it is a healing thus it builds hate on everything engaged, it suffers from the lower enmity modifier, as well as being split across everything engaged. Gla also has access to Leg Sweep, as well as Fire/Fira (and Sanguine Rite so as not to be interrupted) if offense is wanted, but we all know Gla dmg sux lol.

The options are there, and Gla can keep aoe threat against even a War, but War just does it more efficiently, looks good too, and pumps out a ton more dps.

It would be nice if the dev's gave us something similar to Overpower, but based off block and perhaps weaker in dmg, or if they let us parry again. (but alas, pld parry'ing is never going to happen with a shield equipped)

The fact that Gladiator is better than Paladin at AoE threat is a major design issue in and of itself. If anything, PLD should play more like GLA in AoE situations. Additionally, switching classes/jobs should not be considered a solution to any design flaw. PLD should be a self-sufficient class in any party situation given adequate player skill, and at the moment this simply isn't the case.

That said, I also do not consider Curing to be a solid threat tool in AoE situations for a number of reasons. First, it is fundamentally unreliable: If you have many mobs on you, there is a significant chance you will have your cast interrupted. This is an RNG based component - if you get interrupted, you have wasted time, generate 0 enmity for it, and you probably will have a dead party member as a result. Spell interrupts are entirely outside of your control, and that's something we need to avoid. Second, curing is range limited. Finally, (and most importantly) curing for enmity requires that people have taken damage in the first place: this means either you aren't doing your job properly (party members have aggro and are getting hit) or your WHM isn't doing his job properly (you are healing damage that the WHM should be busy healing). Either situation is completely un-ideal, and this makes cure a very poorly conceived & unreliable AoE threat tool.

That isn't to say Curing is worthless - it's a very potent tool when you have the chance to use it. It just should not be a fundamental aggro tool of ours.

[Tman]

Sanguine Rite allows you to cast and not be interrupted, and in such places like Natalan AoE dmg is flying around. Yes there is something that needs to be done when Gla still trumps Pld in a party, when jobs are specific for party play. Suffice to say all we can do is offer suggests (like you have) and wait for the dev's to come around

[Ronik]

Sanguine Rite allows you to cast and not be interrupted, and in such places like Natalan AoE dmg is flying around. Yes there is something that needs to be done when Gla still trumps Pld in a party, when jobs are specific for party play. Suffice to say all we can do is offer suggests (like you have) and wait for the dev's to come around

Fair enough, I forgot about Sanguine Rite. But yeah, I posted this after seeing the WAR get a dev reply on their forum, so I'm hoping we get a visit as well. Maybe they'll also do something about Cover, since Cover is pretty terrible. Might make a separate topic on that one...

[Tango]

True aoe management is not shown through being able to tank hoards of mobs at once keeping lock tight hate on them for several minutes. Its simply being able to either grab and hold hate on a large group long enough for the group to get zerged down, or hold hate on a group long enough for a 2nd tank to peel them off 1 at a time which GLA does perfectly fine. I'm not sure why ppl are worried about holding hate on many mobs for extended periods of time? we have no content that requires this.

Wait for skirmish and decide if WAR is the best tank for hordes of true NM type dificulty mobs. I expect a superior geared PLD will gather up the mobs and a WAR will peel them off 1 at a time while they get taken down.

[SwordCoheir]

It's more along the lines that WAR can set a more concrete hold on hate spamming Steel Cyclone, Overpower, and Whirlwind AND contributes bringing down the mobs at the same time, while PLD on the other hand has Wardrum, Rampart, and Flash which are volatile and in most cases underwhelming in comparison making it difficult to hold onto hate without significant time to build up enmity, which is a liability in fast paced timed combat.

WAR can spam Overpower every 5 seconds doing damage on multiple mobs and can follow up with Steel Cyclone every 30 seconds. Best PLD has is Flash every 30 seconds, with Wardrum's damage is under 50, generates low-mid hate at the most, costs more TP than Overpower, and has a minute long recast. We'd be more than happy to just have Wardrums tp cost reduced to 250 with a 5-15 second recast, the tradeoff they could take away the pitiful damage it generates (which didn't make a whole lot of sense when your just banging your shield anyways).

It's not like were asking for some ungodly DD move to put us in the front lines on the AoE damage map, but we would like the option of at least being able to hold our own on multiple mobs since we lack the ability to use ANY AoE DD moves and our current AoE hate generating options have mid-long recasts.

[Ronik]

True aoe management is not shown through being able to tank hoards of mobs at once keeping lock tight hate on them for several minutes. Its simply being able to either grab and hold hate on a large group long enough for the group to get zerged down, or hold hate on a group long enough for a 2nd tank to peel them off 1 at a time which GLA does perfectly fine. I'm not sure why ppl are worried about holding hate on many mobs for extended periods of time? we have no content that requires this.

Wait for skirmish and decide if WAR is the best tank for hordes of true NM type dificulty mobs. I expect a superior geared PLD will gather up the mobs and a WAR will peel them off 1 at a time while they get taken down.

To be frank, I think most of this post is flat-out wrong. "True AoE threat management" means being able to hold hate on a group of mobs for any prolonged period of time given proper skillful play and ability management. Period. You cannot "zerg down" a large group of mobs with a Paladin tank. Are you implying that Paladin can hold AoE hate against any AoE weaponskills from any competently geared DD? That is false (again, try stronghold as a Paladin tank).

If anything, Warrior will be the one to hold hate on a large group while the Paladin peels off mobs one at a time. If the Paladin has a "horde of NM type mobs" on him, then the Paladin will immediately lose hate to the WHM heal bombing him. I really don't understand what your argument is. Again, you are entirely dodging the issue by saying "GLA can do it" since GLA is not intended to be a viable end-game option. That's the entire point of the class system.

There is no situation in which a Paladin does a better job holding more than one mob than a Warrior does. Paladin AoE tools are fundamentally underpowered in comparison. This is not up for debate. War Drum is a terribly weak ability for its cooldown, and AoE Flash is similarly inadequate given the damage/healing output of DD/WHMs.

To reiterate (since I feel this point is important): telling people to go GLA in that situation is utter garbage. CLASSES are designed to be what we use in any party based combat. If there is a situation where a *job* performs better than a *class* in endgame party content, there is a severe balance problem since that is the entire point of classes. Strongholds are already an example of content where AoE threat control is extremely important. What makes you think there won't be more AoE situations in the future? And, pray tell, how do you justify Paladin abilities being flatly underpowered?