My feedback on the method of obtaining relics in Endwalker

[Supersnow845]

It's not a reward exclusive to Bozja, though. The relic was only tied to exploratory zones in later expansions. It was originally its own questline and reward for that questline. So in a sense that reward is kind of borrowed glory.

If what you're saying is that Bozja's content sucks so badly that it needs a relic, then should they really make more of it? Shouldn't they aim at making content that is going to be fun and engaging and that players want to do and keep going back into, instead of having players push themselves through it and then abandon it when they get what they want so players after them have a hard time?

I bet people would constantly be in Variant if they propped it up with a relic in the same way.

Again your personal enjoyment of the content is irrelevant to this discussion, whether you think Bozja is bad or Bozja is good or variant is bad or variant is good it doesn’t change the stats, Bozja had high retention, variant has garbage retention; Bozja is the second grindiest core combat content in the game and it has interaction that exceed some roulette content

By every measure Bozja was an overwhelming success, part of that can be contributed to the inclusion of the relic, if they can generate that level of interaction via what Bozja already has plus the relic then what’s their incentive not to, yes they could have tied the relic to variant, they probably should have, variant isn’t bad content it’s just this “people will play for the sake of it if the content is fun” doesn’t exist in this game, people will only play when given rewards, and that’s why criterion failed

[Mithron]

You are missing the point, Bozja has higher engagement than any content not in the roulette and exceeds some content in the roulette, how is square meant to see that any other way than making field content and attaching a relic to it is a way to generate content that gets that sort of engagement

You are currently talking out of both sides of your mouth “field content is dead so nothing important should be tied to it” but also “remove important things tied to field content”

Both statements are not mutually exclusive. The main point is to make it so no one has to do exploratory zones to get their relic. It's not fun content for everyone, especially for many players who like to get their relics the "classic" way. If it's an option, fine, even if it's the optimal option to do exploratory content I'd be fine with it so long as it's within reason. What's not fine is standing AFK next to an Aetheryte waiting for other people to pop FATES so I only tab back in, shout lfg, clear the FATE, then go back to AFKing next to the Aetheryte until I'm done with my relic. It's even worse doing the content the way it's meant to be done. That isn't fun, that isn't good, and I shouldn't be forced to do that to get my relic when I already have expectations set on ARR and HW relic methods being far superior.

[Supersnow845]

Both statements are not mutually exclusive. The main point is to make it so no one has to do exploratory zones to get their relic. It's not fun content for everyone, especially for many players who like to get their relics the "classic" way. If it's an option, fine, even if it's the optimal option to do exploratory content I'd be fine with it so long as it's within reason. What's not fine is standing AFK next to an Aetheryte waiting for other people to pop FATES so I only tab back in, shout lfg, clear the FATE, then go back to AFKing next to the Aetheryte until I'm done with my relic. It's even worse doing the content the way it's meant to be done. That isn't fun, that isn't good, and I shouldn't be forced to do that to get my relic when I already have expectations set on ARR and HW relic methods being far superior.

Again you miss my point, this has nothing to do with enjoyment of the content on a personal level, not yours and not mine, you don’t like field content (though I find it hilarious you barely even engage with it then call it bad, pretty much the reason I instapull fates I prep in eureka) I do like field content, neither of our opinions matter

Square created grindy (by 14’s standards) content and made it overwhelmingly successful by tying a relic to it, then they made content in EW and didn’t tie a relic to it and it failed, why would square not tie a relic to their big content piece for the expansion (whether that’s field content or not in DT) when it can help drive that level of engagement (even if the entirety of the engagement of Bozja is not due to the relic it 100% contributed)

[Saraide]

Again your personal enjoyment of the content is irrelevant to this discussion, whether you think Bozja is bad or Bozja is good or variant is bad or variant is good it doesn’t change the stats, Bozja had high retention, variant has garbage retention; Bozja is the second grindiest core combat content in the game and it has interaction that exceed some roulette content

By every measure Bozja was an overwhelming success, part of that can be contributed to the inclusion of the relic, if they can generate that level of interaction via what Bozja already has plus the relic then what’s their incentive not to, yes they could have tied the relic to variant, they probably should have, variant isn’t bad content it’s just this “people will play for the sake of it if the content is fun” doesn’t exist in this game, people will only play when given rewards, and that’s why criterion failed

(bolded by me)
A scathing indictment on the playerbase and honestly the genre as a whole but it's not far off. This is why the genre is trash.

[strawberrycake]

(bolded by me)
A scathing indictment on the playerbase and honestly the genre as a whole but it's not far off. This is why the genre is trash.

As much as people don't like the reality of it, you're not gonna work if you don;t get paid. You're not gonna waste time if it has no results, be it pleasure or relaxation, that's a reward for your time wasted. Genre isn't trash because it rewards time. It;s trash because a bunch of people who don;t wanna work for anything came into the genre when there's literally other genres that they can play that reward them for simply existing and turning on the game.

So many other MMOs have blended Social interaction with rewards and grinds and people remember them fondly, we're having this issue in XIV now because so many people hear casual and forget they have to play the game to get something. Nothing should be handed to you for free, nothing should be unearned. Nothing would matter if given away for free.

Many of us would rather create memories and make friends and push content to enjoy our subs the most and want to do explore and complete as much engaging content as possible. If the Genre is Trash because we want rewards for our efforts, then dang working for anything in life is must suck for a lot of people.

[Saraide]

Again you miss my point, this has nothing to do with enjoyment of the content on a personal level, not yours and not mine, you don’t like field content (though I find it hilarious you barely even engage with it then call it bad, pretty much the reason I instapull fates I prep in eureka) I do like field content, neither of our opinions matter

Square created grindy (by 14’s standards) content and made it overwhelmingly successful by tying a relic to it, then they made content in EW and didn’t tie a relic to it and it failed, why would square not tie a relic to their big content piece for the expansion (whether that’s field content or not in DT) when it can help drive that level of engagement (even if the entirety of the engagement of Bozja is not due to the relic it 100% contributed)

If we just use engagement as metric than the current relic has been a massive success and we shouldnt hold the relic back with bozjas.

As much as people don't like the reality of it, you're not gonna work if you don;t get paid. You're not gonna waste time if it has no results, be it pleasure or relaxation, that's a reward for your time wasted. Genre isn't trash because it rewards time. It;s trash because a bunch of people who don;t wanna work for anything came into the genre when there's literally other genres that they can play that reward them for simply existing and turning on the game.

So many other MMOs have blended Social interaction with rewards and grinds and people remember them fondly, we're having this issue in XIV now because so many people hear casual and forget they have to play the game to get something. Nothing should be handed to you for free, nothing should be unearned. Nothing would matter if given away for free.

Many of us would rather create memories and make friends and push content to enjoy our subs the most and want to do explore and complete as much engaging content as possible. If the Genre is Trash because we want rewards for our efforts, then dang working for anything in life is must suck for a lot of people.

And here I thought games should be entertainment. For fun. If the genre only works because of bribery and cant stand on its own with fun gameplay then it is a failure.

[strawberrycake]

And here I thought games should be entertainment. For fun. If the genre only works because of bribery and cant stand on its own with fun gameplay then it is a failure.

It's called enjoying the work and effort you put in, content being fun means nothing if I get nothing for doing it. Like I love my job, being a nurse is really fun as a biology nerd and someone who has a LOT of empathy to give. But it also pays my bills.

Variant and Critireon are fun, but worthless given it's lack of rewards, I did it once and moved on. So the experience was nice, but the content isn't standing up for replayability. SE is a company that needs to make a bottom line and keep people paying subs, so rewards and long term reward, goals, and achievements are the core of why we play the fun gameplay. This is MMO 101 It's been this way since the inception of MMOs

I'm sorry you expect food to be on your table without work, but that's not how life, nature, and our literal existence works. Wolves hunt to eat, we work to get paid, we play to get rewarded.

If the Genre is trash because it's form of entertainment imitates life then this genre isn't for you.

Edit: Fishing is fun, Going out to the middle of a lake, or going to a nice calm shore is fun. But I also want to catch some fish as well.

[Mithron]

Again you miss my point, this has nothing to do with enjoyment of the content on a personal level, not yours and not mine, you don’t like field content (though I find it hilarious you barely even engage with it then call it bad, pretty much the reason I instapull fates I prep in eureka) I do like field content, neither of our opinions matter

Square created grindy (by 14’s standards) content and made it overwhelmingly successful by tying a relic to it, then they made content in EW and didn’t tie a relic to it and it failed, why would square not tie a relic to their big content piece for the expansion (whether that’s field content or not in DT) when it can help drive that level of engagement (even if the entirety of the engagement of Bozja is not due to the relic it 100% contributed)

Your definition of success is wrong. People doing content they hate to get a reward they want is not success. It doesn't matter what you say do think or believe otherwise, it won't change that fact.

When I engaged in Eureka/Bozja, it was even more antifun than AFKing next to the Aetheryte.

[Saraide]

content being fun means nothing if I get nothing for doing it.

Absolutely insane thing to say.

Also I dont expect food to be on my table without work. That's why I have a job. This game is not a job tho. I have my job to be my job.

[Supersnow845]

Your definition of success is wrong. People doing content they hate to get a reward they want is not success. It doesn't matter what you say do think or believe otherwise, it won't change that fact.

When I engaged in Eureka/Bozja, it was even more antifun than AFKing next to the Aetheryte.

You definition of success is coloured by what you enjoy, not what makes square more money and drives more interest in their content which is what I’m arguing

If we just use engagement as metric than the current relic has been a massive success and we shouldnt hold the relic back with bozjas.



And here I thought games should be entertainment. For fun. If the genre only works because of bribery and cant stand on its own with fun gameplay then it is a failure.

The current relic has had more completion but less overall engagement in collective 14 because it can be completed in less time and content not tied to it died way too fast like VC