Garlemald's situation. (Spoilers 6.55)

[MikkoAkure]

I want to believe that this is the angle that they're ultimately shooting for, even if we probably won't see it for another few years. The Role Master quests in Endwalker had a distinct tone of nostalgia for a peaceful Garlemald, hearkening back to Locus Amoenus in the tribal or republic era, and a sort of celebration of Garlean ingenuity outside of the war machine. The logical step would be to follow through on that ideal in the MSQ, though I doubt we'll get that far until we actually get to central and southern Ilsabard in person.

Yeah, the one good thing that came out of the empire was the Garlean rediscovery of advanced technology similar to their ancestors in Goug. They had and still might have brilliant scientists and engineers out there who had nothing at all to do with Ascians and a new Garlemald can exploit that. People pity party the Garleans, but the Ishgardians have the exact same story of a people getting pushed out from where they lived to move to a climate that's exactly the same as Garlemald's but they're apparently doing fine enough. Elezen used to live in central Aldenard until Hyur migrations from Ilsabard pushed them into Coerthas. Sound familiar?


I think the Garleans will go through a rough patch for sure, and some will remain in Ul'dah (Lemures), Sharlayan, and the Moon in diaspora, but Garlemald will lurch on and eventually carve their own niche in a more peaceful global community. Ishgard is near-ish by and would probably be on more friendly terms since Ishgard wasn't directly assaulted by Garlemald (though they might have things to say about the Calamity caused by them that ended their summers) and they have similar histories of being pushed out of their original lands to live in places otherwise undesirable and both are technologically minded.

Cid was still held in high regard even after defecting to the west and Nero is still around too. But I don't know if either will rejoin Garlemald.

[Hasrat]

But in Endwalker, we are shown nothing but undyingly loyal emperor cultists who are hopelessly ignorant and superstitious despite their world-class education. What happened to the rest? Died off-screen? How convenient. If we couldn't get the full Optimates vs Populares showdown that they set up in Stormblood, we could at least have gotten some imperial citizens that weren't constantly adversarial.

I might also pitch that we're presented with the exact group of people most likely to be huddled around the radio as the world falls apart around them. "The rest" were the tempered.

[Vallavia]

I might also pitch that we're presented with the exact group of people most likely to be huddled around the radio as the world falls apart around them. "The rest" were the tempered.

I'd buy that as an explanation; I'm just idly lamenting lost potential more than anything.

I think the Garleans will go through a rough patch for sure, and some will remain in Ul'dah (Lemures), Sharlayan, and the Moon in diaspora, but Garlemald will lurch on and eventually carve their own niche in a more peaceful global community. Ishgard is near-ish by and would probably be on more friendly terms since Ishgard wasn't directly assaulted by Garlemald (though they might have things to say about the Calamity caused by them that ended their summers) and they have similar histories of being pushed out of their original lands to live in places otherwise undesirable and both are technologically minded.

Cid was still held in high regard even after defecting to the west and Nero is still around too. But I don't know if either will rejoin Garlemald.

I think Garlemald would also find allies among a handful of their former provinces, too, as we've seen the Empire afforded a not-insignificant number of people a much better quality of life than they'd had prior, and some of them might already be missing the luxuries that Garlean industry provided. This is what makes me believe this arc would be better realized if they kicked it down the road awhile to the Ilsabard expansion.
Based on his brief appearance in the Role Master quest, I'd say Nero is a possibility solely predicated on his desire to conduct arcane research, but I have firm doubts Cid would ever associate with Garlemald again. Lucia's too tied down to Ishgard but I could see Maxima having some involvement as well.

[thegreatonemal]

I'd buy that as an explanation; I'm just idly lamenting lost potential more than anything.



I think Garlemald would also find allies among a handful of their former provinces, too, as we've seen the Empire afforded a not-insignificant number of people a much better quality of life than they'd had prior, and some of them might already be missing the luxuries that Garlean industry provided. This is what makes me believe this arc would be better realized if they kicked it down the road awhile to the Ilsabard expansion.
Based on his brief appearance in the Role Master quest, I'd say Nero is a possibility solely predicated on his desire to conduct arcane research, but I have firm doubts Cid would ever associate with Garlemald again. Lucia's too tied down to Ishgard but I could see Maxima having some involvement as well.

I rather doubt that. The only instance we have of that is the 4th legion, which doesn't have anything to do with Garleans, as its entirely run by non Garleans who intend to shake off the yoke of Garlean rule and have just been waiting for the right time to.

[Vallavia]

I rather doubt that. The only instance we have of that is the 4th legion, which doesn't have anything to do with Garleans, as its entirely run by non Garleans who intend to shake off the yoke of Garlean rule and have just been waiting for the right time to.

I would count Landis as at least one:

While he had many a memorable moment during his wanderings, nothing is so close to his heart as his visit to the industrial city of Abdella in Garlean-occupied Landis.

As he strolled through the streets, he came upon a play being performed by a troupe of Eschvan nomads, who were known as much as a source of foreign rumors as they were for their song and dance. The play was a whimsical affair depicting the love lives of ordinary folk, but to Bwagi, who had lived his entire life under a grim pall of conflict, it was anything but ordinary. Even as he was moved by the tale, he was struck by the jovial mood of the city, which had since regained normality following its conquest. This was his first experience of peace, and it proved heady. Taken by a sudden longing, he begged to join the troupe...only to be politely rejected.

That aside, there's so much of Ilsabard left unseen that it's hardly inconceivable in my opinion.

[Cleretic]

One thing that I'm still confused about the whole thing though is why Nerva, Titus' son, was still in command of a legion and in a position of power after the first civil war. The 3rd lore book says that he was also against Varis every step of the way so it stands to reason he'd also be Populares like his father, but we know how he ended up.

I can see reasons for that.

1. Controlled opposition. Give people who disagree with the government a figurehead to rally around, that actually doesn't have much power beyond being a magnet for dissidents.
2. Just straight-up self-assurance. Varis wasn't exactly a perfect military mind, it's perfectly within his personal failings to just not think Titus' failure of a son is actually a danger. Hell, the only evidence I have that Nerva had any sort of charisma at all is that his lines in the 6.1 quest sound like they're probably coming from a fairly well-balanced man lamenting the loss of his country, and if he were a bad leader he'd sound more like Asahi.

Basically, pick how much faith you have in Varis to make an intelligent decision: some, or no.

[YianKutku]

I had a few more thoughts to share regarding the Populares and Optimates, but I'd need to dig up exact quotes about them to confirm the in-universe definitions vs the RL definitions, so I'll leave that for a bit later when I have more energy. In the meantime:

I might also pitch that we're presented with the exact group of people most likely to be huddled around the radio as the world falls apart around them. "The rest" were the tempered.

This is confirmed, yes. When we first venture into Garlemald in Endwalker, we fight a number of "random Garlean enemies", and subdue them. Later, Maxima identifies them as fellow members of the Populares, all tempered, and eventually safely cured by the Ilsabard Contingent. So the idea that the people sympathetic to the Populares have all been tempered, while the people sympathetic to the Optimates are safe due to the radio, is confirmed in-game.

[YianKutku]

Okay, this is going to be a bit of a rant, because I've been pondering this for a while.

The problem with analyzing the Populares and Optimates in FFXIV is the text never explains precisely what they are, in terms of definitions. We don't know if they are political parties, political alignments, or political sympathies.

"Political parties" is as described, meaning official groups or factions within the Garlean Senate and political structures, campaigning together as defined parties, like the Liberal Democratic Party in Japan.

"Political alignments" is like a broader grouping of parties, like the "left-wing" and "right-wing" descriptions in RL. Leftist, liberal, centrist, conservative, communist, reactionary, anarchist, fascist, so on and so forth. These include the actual political parties involved in government, but are not restricted to them; anyone can proclaim their allegiance to an alignment, and work to promote that alignment, but the main thing is they are working to promote that alignment. This is what I personally suspect the FFXIV Populares and Optimates are, because we meet (and beat up and cure) tempered Populares when we enter Garlemald, and I doubt we just happened to have encountered actual politicians then. Likely they were members of the Garlean military, and their superiors (I want to guess Legatus-level, but I might be wrong) were aligned with the Populares. Since Maxima recognized them, they were probably officers of some sort too. (Historically, military officers inevitably involved themselves in politics in some way, both enthusiastically and reluctantly.)

"Political sympathies" is the broadest, and what we're assuming when we say "the Optimates are the ones huddled around the radio". As in, the regular civilians and public, who would, in a more democratic system, be voting for the political alignments and parties they side with. But they're not members of those political parties, nor are they associated with the ideologies beyond "I agree with them". I'm skeptical this is what FFXIV means when it talks about Populares and Optimates, because it's simply too broad and general. It's like saying "Ishgardians are at war with the dragons", which is fine for a brief and understandably vague summary, but leaves out the details of which parts of Ishgard's society are literally on the battlefield against which dragon brood.

We do know what they're not: political methods, which is what the RL historical Populares and Optimates were. "Populares" and "Optimates", in the Roman Republic sense, simply describes the source of support for a given politician: the masses for the Populares politician, and the elites for the Optimate politician. This means a "Populares" politician might have gained the support of the masses by increasing the "grain dole" to the common people, or whipped up fervour for war by invading other countries. And given the opposition of Populares and Optimates, this means if a Roman Consul wanted to grab some land by means of conquest, but the Senate refused for whatever reason, that Consul would turn Populares (and anti-Optimates) by convincing the common people of the benefits and glory of war, bypassing the Senate and reducing their power.

So using the historical definition, the most Populares of the Garlean politicians was Solus zos Galvus, for proclaiming himself Emperor with the consent of the common folk, and reducing the power of the Garlean Senate to an advisory role. Similarly for Varis zos Galvus, since he obviously did not return the power of the Senate when he took the throne.

Obviously, FFXIV is not using this historical definition, and there lies my rant. FFXIV is obviously evoking the basic idea behind historical Populares and Optimates of "common people" vs "elites", but does not follow it closely, while also being vague about what differences there may be. The Populares are described as "the common people who desire an end to conquest", but that is ambiguous enough to mean either "the common people as a whole, who generally desire an end to conquest", or "those segments of the common people who desire an end to conquest". And when Varis launched his purge against the Populares, we don't know if this means he purged the known Populares politicians (the "parties" and "alignments" definitions), or if it was some sort of totalitarian cleansing of wrongthink (the "sympathies" definition). Common sense would indicate the former, but again, we don't know.

In summary, I argue that it is likely better to treat "Populares" and "Optimates" as merely labels, in the context of FFXIV, without going into the historical definitions of the terms. Replace them with "Politics A" and "Politics B", and it would be just as informative.

[Cleretic]

In summary, I argue that it is likely better to treat "Populares" and "Optimates" as merely labels, in the context of FFXIV, without going into the historical definitions of the terms. Replace them with "Politics A" and "Politics B", and it would be just as informative.

We also have something of a problem of limited perspectives. While we do know of the existence of the Populares and Optimates from multiple sources, our viewpoint of what the Populares want, think and believe is just Maxima. I hardly think Maxima is lying to us, but he only exists in very limited contexts, mostly relating to how the Garleans look at military and existential threats. And himself, is only one person who's unlikely to be completely, 100% reflective of the 'party line'. FFXIV has played with intra-party divides and their clashes with personal interests before with the Monetarists, so it's a fair assumption that the Populares were probably more complex than just talking to Maxima would have us believe.

Granted, a bunch of that doesn't matter, and probably reflect on things that we as players don't care about, like transport or healthcare. Maybe the Populares were actually way more conservative about, like, energy policy; we don't know, and probably never will, because it doesn't change one thing about the play experience.

[YianKutku]

We also have something of a problem of limited perspectives. While we do know of the existence of the Populares and Optimates from multiple sources, our viewpoint of what the Populares want, think and believe is just Maxima. I hardly think Maxima is lying to us, but he only exists in very limited contexts, mostly relating to how the Garleans look at military and existential threats. And himself, is only one person who's unlikely to be completely, 100% reflective of the 'party line'. FFXIV has played with intra-party divides and their clashes with personal interests before with the Monetarists, so it's a fair assumption that the Populares were probably more complex than just talking to Maxima would have us believe.

Granted, a bunch of that doesn't matter, and probably reflect on things that we as players don't care about, like transport or healthcare. Maybe the Populares were actually way more conservative about, like, energy policy; we don't know, and probably never will, because it doesn't change one thing about the play experience.

We also know, from 4.x dialogue, that the Populares did not represent every citizen of Garlemald who might share their views on opposing imperialism. Specifically, Cid had no idea about the existence of the Populares, while the Populares held Cid as the finest example of a principled objector who acted upon their conscience rather than submit to authority. Hence my belief that the Populares consisted of the "political alignment" definition at most. There might be others who shared the same views, whether in part or in whole, but they might not have wanted (or been able) to associate themselves explicitly with the Populares movement.

Still, you are correct that we only know about the Populares via Maxima, and also implicitly from the lack of corrections or comments from others who might have information on the workings of Garlean politics. For example, Thancred and Riol, as well as the collective group of Doman infiltrators to Garlemald. In fact, we first heard about the Populares in the first place via Asahi, and we only know Asahi wasn't lying outright due to Maxima not contradicting him even after Asahi's demise. And all we know about the Populares from these sources are "common people" and "opposed to war". Of the Optimates we know even less, apart from their opposition to the Populares.

It's one of the aspects of Garlemald that got sidetracked by the events of 5.x, viz the Garlemald civil war. I've heard this plot issue described as "Squid on the Mantelpiece": it's like the proverbial Chekov's Gun, but events become so large and drastic that all the subtle plot foreshadowing and setup ceases to be relevant. To use an example from Star Wars Knights Of The Old Republic, there was all the setup about gang relations and underworld espionage on Taris, and then none of it mattered after Act 1. In FFXIV, we never had the chance to explore the intricate politics of Garlemald, because in 5.0 we had to go to the First, especially since we specifically were told in 4.5 that none of it matters. Black Rose, introduced in 4.0, was basically the Star Destroyer orbiting Taris: the plot device already present that would make all the plot setup irrelevant once used.

So by the time we entered Garlemald, or had a chance of entering Garlemald that would not mean Black Rose being used on us (as per the Eighth Calamity timeline), the Populares and Optimates factions have become irrelevant. There might have been new factions that shared some values with one or the other, eg "cooperate with the international community" vs "build back up to subjugate", but I don't think they would even count as direct successors to the Populares and Optimates as political alignments.

EDIT: I just thought of a much closer comparison: the political conflict between the Monetarists and Royalists of Ul'dah, at the time of Endwalker. A serious dispute that formed the basis of several important plot points in ARR and Heavensward, but by the time of Endwalker (or even Shadowbringers) it's kind of minor and irrelevant, compared to the Final Days.