Frontlines sucks Ultra megathread

[Mawlzy]

Even with this, I’ve seen a premade with some of the best players on crystal lose before, simply due to the fact of how much the server loathes that group.

I reissue my challenge to solo colleagues on Aether to turn that loathing into positive, highly-destructive action. Vive la resistance!

[Mawlzy]

...as I have mentioned above, doing a pincer attack will have limited effect too - the premade will wipe the opposite team in seconds before running away to regroup. Your own team will have to be in exactly the right place at exactly the right time. Their attacks will have to be just as simultaneous, with the same meta jobs used by the premade.

This is an important point which I didn't fully appreciate myself until recently.

I had the misfortune to be on the same team as a (mediocre) premade. About 5 mins in on Onsal, the shot-caller made a poor decision to try for a node at the SW spawn point where three paths lead to the node. Whether by design or serendipity, the two other teams carried out a classic sandwich. And we simply punched out through the southern path leading to base camp.

[Aravell]

actively forming a pre-organised group to cover all meta jobs, syncing via vc to the point where attacks are simultaneous

I've seen a lot of people make this claim, and so I want to ask:

If the attacks are lined up in a way that it's similtaneuous (so the DRK pulls everyone in, the RPR immediately breaks Guard and then the DRGs slam down immediately upon Guard break), then wouldn't delaying the DRK or RPR by even one second out of order cause their attack to immediately fail?

If the order is that tightly timed, even a slight delay would cause one of the parts to fall out of order. For example, the RPR causes fear, but the DRK isn't on time to pull everyone into the center of the DRG's impact point. Or the DRK pulls everyone but the RPR doesn't arrive in time to break Guard before the DRGs slam down.

[Valence]

The counter is usually to miracle the key players (DRK, RPR...) before they execute their thing, or punt them away with enlightenment. It's easier said than done since you need to approach them without getting nuked yourself, and you need to have some of them blow their cooldowns too early, else they'll just wait and do it 15s later. Still, it can ruin their kitchen sink pretty hardcore and that's how games full of premades deal with each other.

[Scintilla]

snip

Yes and No.

First problem: Purify. You're no doubt already aware that not only does it remove current debuffs, but prevents new ones for 5 seconds. Use it just before the run in and most stuns won't apply anyway.

There are still a few things which will work despite the purify buff, such as WHM Miracle of Nature, and MNK LB will continue to lock them into the animation. That said, both would require very, very specific timing and both carry some form of issues: the WHM skill is quite short-range compared to other skills and getting within range to debuff the DRK and then getting out again safely whilst there is a full BH5 alliance running within range, is pretty much suicidal. Similar for Monk as not only is the DRK locked in animation, so are you.

And despite the self-sacrifice, delaying the DRK by just a few seconds doesn't tend to be particularly helpful anyway. The DRGs will still have a few seconds left to delay their LB cast a little if they notice the DRK has had problems. Depending how late the DRK's stun was, the RPR may have already jumped in expecting the DRK to have done the same, but again, he can always pause the LB if needed. Ultimately, it just buys a second or two for a few more of your alliance to notice the danger and get away. The benefit of the voice chat helping not only in delivering the attack but in very quickly pausing it too.
The main deviation from this is if you're able to delay the DRK for too long to recover from, for example, knockback off a cliff edge or from the Onsal centre podium.
Ultimately, it would require very specific timing, someone very aware of their job skills and it's strengths and uses in such scenarios, and someone aware of their surroundings. Is a typical casual player going to be able to do it? No.

Rather than focusing the DRK, focusing the premade RPR/DNC would likely be the priority as it's them who will ultimately remove Guard and lead to guaranteed death of everyone. Though that is far easier said than done - high BH buffs, purify buff, quick movement skills (teleport/dash) to escape quickly, additional def buff for RPR etc.

There are perhaps other counters:

Using DRK yourself to voke and bind the approaching alliance. This can help to hold the randoms within the premades alliance out of range, but it won't hold the DRGs who will already be in LB and on their way to kill the random team. Do it too early to try to catch them too and their premade DRK just won't voke until you're dead - which vs a full BH5 alliance won't take too long without LB buff.

WAR could be useful. The stun won't work over the DRKs purify buff, but they could widely stun the oncoming alliance. But like with DRK, it won't stop the DRGs and you're throwing yourself into the enemy team without an invincibility buff. They have a pullback but, like MNK, unless this is off a cliff edge, it's effect will be more of a slight delay rather than a full successful counter.

Using RPR/DNC LB to delay the approaching alliance. This will affect the DRGs in LB too, but will only buy a few extra seconds unless these LBs are chained. If they're chained, I suppose it's plausible that you could keep them debuffed long enough to completely waste the DRG LBs and/or wipe out the BH5 alliance entirely. But, this would only be the case as either as a result of pure luck or a coordinated premade also being on the victim team. It is possible to counter a premade if you're part of a premade yourself - but playing as a premade should never be made a necessity to stand any chance of winning a FL.


TLDR:
Yes, there are some classes which can be useful counters - WHM, RPR, DNC, WAR, DRK
But, unless used as part of a coordinated premade team yourself, many will only buy a matter of seconds (which would be a nuisance to premades, it's true, but not a gamechanger), and will have very high risk of repeatedly causing your own death in the process.

[Raikai]

In my eyes, Frontlines (large scale PVP) would only work if the jobs had a specific skillset tailored for the situation. Yeah, it's more work to do, but I don't think it will be ever possible to balance PVP between two drastically different modes using the same actions.

[Mawlzy]

I've seen a lot of people make this claim, and so I want to ask:

If the attacks are lined up in a way that it's similtaneuous (so the DRK pulls everyone in, the RPR immediately breaks Guard and then the DRGs slam down immediately upon Guard break), then wouldn't delaying the DRK or RPR by even one second out of order cause their attack to immediately fail?

If the order is that tightly timed, even a slight delay would cause one of the parts to fall out of order. For example, the RPR causes fear, but the DRK isn't on time to pull everyone into the center of the DRG's impact point. Or the DRK pulls everyone but the RPR doesn't arrive in time to break Guard before the DRGs slam down.

In addition to what Scintilla and Valence have said, I think there is the old chestnut of a "skill issue" here, but it's borderline impossible to overcome.

A semi-static premade repeats its burst multiple times a match. These folks play several hours a day. They get good at it. For randos trying to counter it, you basically need several skilled solo players to be in the right place at the right time and with the right composition. Sometimes you get lucky, 49/50 you don't.

Question: there are a couple of premades I've seen with preternatural movement synchronization. I assume they're using some kind of "follow" macro. Any thoughts on how that would work and whether it's vulnerable to anything? Like can a max range Blota eff it up?

[EvianYmir89]

In my eyes, Frontlines (large scale PVP) would only work if the jobs had a specific skillset tailored for the situation. Yeah, it\\'s more work to do, but I don\\'t think it will be ever possible to balance PVP between two drastically different modes using the same actions.

That’s what a majority of the player base would like, but that would mean showing actual interest in FL. They’d rather focus on continuing to improve CC while leaving FL to die

[Mawlzy]

That’s what a majority of the player base would like, but that would mean showing actual interest in FL. They’d rather focus on continuing to improve CC while leaving FL to die

I don't think FL will die. If queue times get longer, as is currently happening on Shatter, SE is more likely to throw more rewards and Mogtome events at it. That said, I share your pessimism that it is unlikely to improve.

[EvianYmir89]

I don't think FL will die. If queue times get longer, as is currently happening on Shatter, SE is more likely to throw more rewards and Mogtome events at it. That said, I share your pessimism that it is unlikely to improve.

I meant left to die as in they don’t worry about how negatively the changes from CC affect FL. Until they realize there is an actual active community who does FL as much as CC, they’ll never address the issues