Frontlines sucks Ultra megathread

[Eastwall]

You at least accept that my issue "people are not improving fast enough" is a valid issue.

I would like to continue asking a few more questions. This is not some sort of "gatcha" trap. This is to find where are reasons diverge in a stright forward an direct manner.

Is it wrong to offer advice to players?

It is not, but there is no incentive to improve since you get the roulette bonus even if you lose. So it enters one ear Then exits right away from the other ear.

[Mawlzy]

It is not, but there is no incentive to improve since you get the roulette bonus even if you lose. So it enters one ear Then exits right away from the other ear.

Not sure if Olivia was thinking of in-match advice or mentoring via Discord/FC. The former is tricky simply because the battles tend to be hectic, but I'd suggest the standard, aggressive commanding that is becoming increasingly common does more harm than good in this regard. With light commanding or multiple players providing suggestions, all those players who are actually trying have to make constant assessments of the battle state via the map and the current engagement. That is how you learn the mode. It is also essential for fast responses to changing situations. Even with macros firing off, a marker, and the chat getting blasted with <se.X>, there is a significant lag between the commander reaching a decision and the broadcasted orders being processed and acted upon by the other players. Part of this lag is simply that players "simply following orders" have no idea of the current strategic situation; they just do as they're told.

In other words, in the absence of an overbearing commander, interested players develop the strategic skills they need to be good at the game, and in doing so will have far faster reaction times than someone who is simply being told what to do. Indeed it raises the question of why someone would even play a strategy game if their role, as dictated by a self-appointed boss, is to do precisely what they're told. I can imagine the playstyle driving away the best players.

Again I guess it comes down to goals. If the only reason to play FL is to win, then following strict orders from a competent commander may very well be the best approach. But if you want to actually improve, thereby raising the overall skill floor, or heaven forbid exercise some personal agency, such a commander isn't helping at all. The only "learning" element is practicing w-a-s-d navigation, which I suspect most of us have mastered by now.

[Mawlzy]

Let me give a specific example of this. There is a common scenario on Onsal that frequently causes annihilation of the NE-spawn team within the first two minutes.

On the first node spawn, an A-rank pops in north cave. NE team is ordered towards it. For many node configurations that include a B on riverside, there's an opportunity for the South-spawn team to pick up that B uncontested, then pinch the NE team at the cave entrance behind as the NE is engaging the third team that has come in from the west.

If you are paying attention to the map, you're immediately aware of this possibility when the nodes pop. Never have I seen an aggressive commander point this out. And those simply following a "D" seem completely oblivious to it. So what happens?

The commander issues a pinch "warning" when half the team is already respawning back at base, because having been ordered around by such commanders they have never developed map awareness, nor the ability to anticipate what might happen in 20 seconds time.

And who is most likely to get wiped out? "Leeches," sure (don't care for that term). But it will also include the inexperienced players, some of whom are simply new and trying out the mode. And they conclude "oh I died again for no apparent reason, despite doing as I was told, what a bloody stupid game."

Assuming that this command style will raise the skill floor is like assuming that an infantry private is going to learn battle strategies and tactics on the battlefield via osmosis. In fact, it's counter-productive.

In the absence of an aggressive commander, I have "pinch danger from 'color'" ready to go in chat when playing from NE and a configuration spawns that can create this mess. In the presence of an aggressive commander, I shutty for fear of getting yelled at for interrupting their performance.

[Patesaupesto]

idk if that is still the case, but that made me INSTANT STOP pvp :
PLD could invuln an ally idk hwo exatcly, and that ally was free to take the objective

[Mawlzy]

idk if that is still the case, but that made me INSTANT STOP pvp :
PLD could invuln an ally idk hwo exatcly, and that ally was free to take the objective

SE fixed that. It was a fairly spectacular screw up on their part.

[Ancalagon_Blacktalon]

personally as a solo player I do prefer direction in frontlines because there is just so much going on that it's hard for me to pick an optimal decision other than "stay with the pack or die". it is pretty exhilarating playing with a good shot-caller.

but yeah, I can absolutely tell when one of the opposing teams has a premade. they hit like a truck consistently over and over in ways that can't really happen unless they know each other already, or are using a (3rd party!) voice chat, and it's not great as someone who queues in solo. I prefer close games, I'll try my best but it's frustrating to just get absolutely bodied over and over because I had the "misfortune" of ending up on a team with a bunch of strangers who don't know each other.

Like, I play DRG and only DRG in pvp, all of my attack options are selfish, I basically exist to be a sniper rifle picking off people who stray from the pack. I'm not sure what else I can be doing in that situation if a coordinated group just bowls all of us over and kills us seemingly instantly?

[Mawlzy]

personally as a solo player I do prefer direction in frontlines because there is just so much going on that it's hard for me to pick an optimal decision other than "stay with the pack or die". it is pretty exhilarating playing with a good shot-caller.

but yeah, I can absolutely tell when one of the opposing teams has a premade. they hit like a truck consistently over and over in ways that can't really happen unless they know each other already, or are using a (3rd party!) voice chat, and it's not great as someone who queues in solo. I prefer close games, I'll try my best but it's frustrating to just get absolutely bodied over and over because I had the "misfortune" of ending up on a team with a bunch of strangers who don't know each other.

Like, I play DRG and only DRG in pvp, all of my attack options are selfish, I basically exist to be a sniper rifle picking off people who stray from the pack. I'm not sure what else I can be doing in that situation if a coordinated group just bowls all of us over and kills us seemingly instantly?

The standard advice I've received is "get friends, form your own premade," which is as condescending as it is arrogant. I guess the good news is that, as a DRG, you are useful to a DRK+ premade when you land on their team. Unfortunately, assuming a single premade in a match, that only happens 29% of the time.

[Scintilla]

snip

I know how demoralising it can be and how it tends to remove any semblance of 'competition' within a game - removed by the very people who claim to be playing this way because they want to see more competition? That logic doesn't quite work for me, but for now this is an issue that we are unfortunately stuck with. We can only work with it.

Firstly avoid giving up and becoming defeatist. Premade teams can be beaten. It does need a bit of luck and teamwork, but isn't entirely impossible. Unfortunately, in general, such games will require the two random alliances to work together to focus the premade's alliance down. This is where a bit of luck is needed. Sadly, we have no control over what the second random alliance chooses to do and can only hope that they also choose the path of determined cooperation.
However, we can influence our own alliance and there are small things which we could do to help increase our chances of competing a tiny bit:

1. When you see a particularly troublesome DRK, mark them at the earliest opportunity you get. It will make them far easier to spot at a distance and give you and the rest of your alliance a tiny bit more warning of them incoming.

2. Once you see them and mark them, call a warning. Something in chat about watching out for a DRK/premade on xxx team. Assuming the premade aren't using a RPR/DNC to remove Guard, you can also give a quick reminder to your team to use Guard if they get caught by the DRK. This would be common knowledge amongst regular players, but if it helps to remind new or beginner players of the tools available to them, then all the better.

3. Try to keep a focus on the premade alliance at every opportunity available. While it might seem counterproductive at the beginning when they'll likely be 2nd/3rd place in points (as they're largely ignoring early objectives and going straight into farming BH), if you take your attention off them for even a moment, they'll quickly take the advantage to the point where it's much, much harder to take it back again.
The second random alliance is your friend. If you are lucky enough that they choose to take a defiant stand and focus down the premade, help them. Pinch the premade while they're beginning their attack on the other alliance. Farm BH

4. General good play also helps, obviously. Keep a watch on your own DRK (if you have one), try to coordinate your own attacks/LB with their vokes, say something when your LB is ready (it will let the DRK know you're ready for a burst and let the other DPS know that you can get some good damage if they are able to coordinate their attacks/LB with yours). Map bottlenecks are a nightmare vs premades, try to spread out as much as possible.

Other tips are generally more class-specific. Depending on how confident you are and how interested you are in expanding your knowledge of various classes in PvP, you could always give MNK, RPR, DRK etc. a try to take a more targeted role in trying to hinder the premade

[Mawlzy]

I do think there's some hope this situation will be at least mitigated by SE. It's clear there's a persistent sub-community of PvPers who chase down any angle to farm wins, or who just enjoy the thrill of obliterating opponents through an unfair edge. Was it 5.1 when by switching off freelancer you'd get entire 24-person teams that Q-synched in?

The shame of it is that there are people who simply like to play with a friend or two, plus the best way to introduce others to the mode is to party up. As Scintilla noted in another one of her posts, people are selfish. I just wish some wouldn't try to paint that selfishness as altruism.

[Astralrisk]

The standard advice I've received is "get friends, form your own premade," which is as condescending as it is arrogant.

To be fair, if you are playing to farm wins then I don't see why you wouldn't try and find/make a premade to do them with. Not saying it's an absolute requirement to do so, but getting friends or just randoms who also care about getting wins shouldn't be incredibly hard to find.