Frontlines sucks Ultra megathread

[Mawlzy]

I certainly have no idea what you're talking about since the above list has zero connection to what I've been discussing.

If you want the simplest tl;dr

I dislike playing with you and people who adopt your playstyle.

A point I made weeks ago, the reasons for which I've explained extensively.

[Scintilla]

I certainly have no idea what you're talking about since the above list has zero connection to what I've been discussing.

I presume the list was in response to your "Why else would your win-rate rocket" question. They're listing the factors (including a premade party - No.7) which they feel contributed to their increase in win-rate.


On a different note, the lack of any kind of progressive discussion in this thread is almost laughable, with the same points being repeated endlessly. Ultimately, it is a 'personal profit and efficiency vs cost to wider community' discussion, but one at the opposite end of scale to leeches.


Leeches solely value their time-reward ratio. They'll tend to go through the very basic motions of the game, but won't put in any effort to push for a win because their only interest is the reward at the end. This comes at a cost to the wider community, as they are now playing alongside a deadweight burden who will contribute little to nothing to the game. The slight comfort, though, is that these players will be present in every team and their existence doesn't directly hinder the other active players in their play (indirectly, yes, as these spots within the team are effectively 'wasted' and could be better filled with someone who actually wants to be there to contribute).

Premade teams solely value their win rate. They'll take advantage of personal friendships and connections and often voice chat to quickly establish full and unopposable control within random games because their only interest is to improve their personal win-rate. This comes at a cost to the wider community, as these random players now have the incredibly difficult job of somehow orchestrating their completely unknown team into seriously competing against a small group of players who have placed heavy reliance upon the assets available to them to form a premade and coordinated team. (I would add: the premades aren't capable of / aren't willing to bring about this level of coordination amongst random teams, hence why they formed their little premade in the first place. So why force this expectation upon a team of unsuspecting randoms, along with the message of 'git good' when they fail?)
There may be a few stubborn and driven individuals who will push to fight purely for the satisfaction of watching the premade lose. But, for the most part, this situation quickly pushes most into despair and defeatism and, ultimately, away from FLs.


For myself, PvP has already died in previous multiplayer games I enjoyed in the past because of the toxic, arrogant, and self-serving environment it has a habit of forming. So for me, the wider community and helping more into PvP is the priority. Unfortunately, however, the 'personal profit and efficiency' is the priority for far too many

[Aravell]

I want to point out something, the tight coordination of a premade group can also be their greatest weakness.

If you're a very good player that understands the ebb and flow of FL combat, you alone can shut down a DRK premade if you play MNK. If you identify the exact moment that the DRK makes the order to dive, you can LB them and then knock them out of position, the RPR will already go in and expect a Salted Earth that will not come, so the RPR LB will scatter people even further out, which makes the DRG LB miss out on the center impact damage, it's a cascade of failures by the premade all by taking out the DRK that's meant to bring it all together.

I've tested this against several premades I know on Materia, so I know this method has a high chance of working. Of course, it's not easy to identify the exact moment you need to disable the DRK, which is why I said you can only do it if you're a very good player with good understanding of combat flow. But the rewards if you manage to pull it off is great, your team only needs to Recuperate once and then regroup to clean up all the ranged jobs that came in with the RPR expecting free kills.

Of course, you likely won't be killing the premade because the DRK will probably call their friends to get out as soon as they realise they've been knocked out of position, but you denied them a bunch of kills and you end up taking points from them by killing those players who don't know when to back out.

[OliviaLugria]

I presume the list was in response to your "Why else would your win-rate rocket" question.

On a different note, the lack of any kind of progressive discussion in this thread is almost laughable, with the same points being repeated endlessly.

Thank you for pointing that out. I thought including the quote would be enough.

I think discussion on any forum is a tall ask. People on the internet will try anything but talking to someone genuinely. You can't even get someone to explain their position in one post when asked. ;-;

Pretty much agree with you about the leeches. I would add that there is a major effort-time ratio involved.

As for premades, At least some only want to play with friends and others only want to see others lose. It's not some major point. winning is very important to many of them, including myself.

I'm also going to reiterate that while some do use voice, a majority do not. On aether, there are several cwls that people gather up parties with and just use chat. The static party of 4 hyper coordinating in voice is the execption not the rule.

I wanted to expand on (capable/willing to bring about cooperation). Being incapable of is as much as the team's fault as any commander. I.e. I can tell people what jobs are good, when to attack/leave, what objectives to cap; it means nothing if the team doesn't follow.

Being unwilling to coordinate with randoms has its own set of problems. Many leaches react negatively, threatening reports. You take on a lot of responsibility by trying to lead your team, and it's complicated when you first start. I currently use around 32 macros for calls on top of targeting, waymarks, and job actions. It is dreadfully easier to get 3 others who don't need calls and use mob mentality to support you. Less power usually, but you avoid getting flamed. (I'm not saying you need all those macros to be effective, but if I don't express my exact intentions clearly and quickly people won't follow.)

As to why you would "force" this style of play onto others... PVP is a competition. Competition breeds innovation as well as a desire to win. It should be natural to adopt better strategies that increase your chances of winning. NA/EU are simply behind.

Everyone on JP knows how to spread out for dark pulls, guard drg dives, burst on dark salted earth's. They understand pinching and baiting maneuvers and if there is a caller will do their best to listen. Any average premade is no better than the average solo player. Even the top groups rock about a 40%.

The issue we have right now (and why I think FL sucks calling back to this thread's namesake) is the speed at which people are improving is far to slow. The "will to win" isn't enough incentive for the average player to improve. They have a choice between acting like a premade and acting like leeches, and for most, that answer is obvious.

[JuicyHeals]

Until Square Enix completely revamps frontline in a way that can get people to play without the need of tomes or the massive xp bonus the rate people will improve will be neglible I suspect for years.

Fact is I enjoy pvping but I have to accept that I'm part of a small minority that does enjoy it, perhaps it's different on JP centers but the vast majority on crystal at least seem to be of the "get in get out" mentality that while I hate, there nothing I can do about

[Mawlzy]

I presume the list was in response to your "Why else would your win-rate rocket" question. They're listing the factors (including a premade party - No.7) which they feel contributed to their increase in win-rate.


On a different note, the lack of any kind of progressive discussion in this thread is almost laughable, with the same points being repeated endlessly. Ultimately, it is a 'personal profit and efficiency vs cost to wider community' discussion, but one at the opposite end of scale to leeches.

I agree this has degenerated into pointless repetition and apologize for my part in that. It's the reason I didn't address "The List" in which only point 7 is relevant, since it would only compound the problem. I also agree completely with your other observations.

[OliviaLugria]

You're the one who asked :/

[Mawlzy]

The issue we have right now (and why I think FL sucks calling back to this thread's namesake) is the speed at which people are improving is far to slow. The "will to win" isn't enough incentive for the average player to improve. They have a choice between acting like a premade and acting like leeches, and for most, that answer is obvious.

Maybe the responses I've made on multiple occasions to this point is what I have failed to communicate clearly, and should have been my closing tl;dr on the topic.

Through your training programs at your FL Commander FC and Discord, you will improve the skill level of a handful of people who wish to emulate your style and enjoy your win-rate. I can see from your point of view why that's appealing, albeit short-sighted; from mine it is disastrous.

I'm not too sure who made you arbiter of the correct speed at which FL skill should be improving, but I'd suggest it's not improving at all. And the more you push your agenda, the worse that situation is likely to become. I and others have presented reasons to you why your playstyle decreases the average skill level. For the last time: the elimination of player agency that your playstyle creates increases despondency in the less skilled and drives away the more skilled out of tedium. You eliminate the "will to win" in those who once had it, because will without a way is a neutered desire.

[Mawlzy]

You're the one who asked :/

It was a rhetorical question.

[OliviaLugria]

Can you agree that if more players were better, premades would be less of a problem?