Frontlines sucks Ultra megathread

[Cidel]

I tend to be reluctant to report anyone in FL, but good gravy, when someone both refuses to engage the enemy and spends the match typing gibberish in chat, it has to be done. Mogtome event once again shows that as the rewards go up, so does lethargic play.

If Moogle Treasure Trove rewards went down for 3rd (last) place (to like, only one mogtome), and maybe went up for first place by the same amount (2nd place can stay the same), I don't think there'd be as much lethargic people. But the devs are deathly afraid to give such discrepancies between first and dead last. And no, it wouldn't kill the mode- FL queues are just fine without mogtomes the rest of the year.

[Aravell]

If Moogle Treasure Trove rewards went down for 3rd (last) place (to like, only one mogtome), and maybe went up for first place by the same amount (2nd place can stay the same), I don't think there'd be as much lethargic people. But the devs are deathly afraid to give such discrepancies between first and dead last. And no, it wouldn't kill the mode- FL queues are just fine without mogtomes the rest of the year.

It wouldn't kill the mode but it would encourage people to ignore 1st place and secure 2nd place.

If 1st place is already far ahead, instead of teaming up and taking down the 1st place team, the 2nd and 3rd place would be far more likely to start attacking each other to secure 2nd place if the 3rd place rewards were vastly reduced.

[Cidel]

It wouldn't kill the mode but it would encourage people to ignore 1st place and secure 2nd place.

If 1st place is already far ahead, instead of teaming up and taking down the 1st place team, the 2nd and 3rd place would be far more likely to start attacking each other to secure 2nd place if the 3rd place rewards were vastly reduced.

I disagree that it would encourage people to ignore 1st place. As it is now (and usually always has been), people with barely a lead (especially at the start) often tend to get focused on when available. At that point you're making the bigger assumption that people won't contest 1st place for twice as many mogtomes than getting just 1 or 2 more mogtomes for securing 2nd. You could just as well make the same hypothetical argument that the larger reward for 1st place motivates people to actually want to focus on dragging the 1st place team down.

If 1st place is ever that far ahead where the general consensus of the teams are "fight for 2nd," then there's already a fundamental skill issue between the losing teams that probably wouldn't have been remedied by suddenly deciding they have to focus them down. Also, there's no achievement rewards for coming in 2nd x amount of times nor do the standard tomestones awarded for queuing differ between finishing 2nd and 3rd, so at that point you're saying that only a 1 or 2 mogtome difference is worth not teaming-up against 1st place.

I'll admit that 2nd and 3rd place teams fighting each other already happens, although it is more because of spite, tunnel-vision or general ignorance.

[Mawlzy]

If Moogle Treasure Trove rewards went down for 3rd (last) place (to like, only one mogtome), and maybe went up for first place by the same amount (2nd place can stay the same), I don't think there'd be as much lethargic people. But the devs are deathly afraid to give such discrepancies between first and dead last. And no, it wouldn't kill the mode- FL queues are just fine without mogtomes the rest of the year.

Yeah I have no idea why FL is part of the event.

[Aravell]

I disagree that it would encourage people to ignore 1st place. As it is now (and usually always has been), people with barely a lead (especially at the start) often tend to get focused on when available. At that point you're making the bigger assumption that people won't contest 1st place for twice as many mogtomes than getting just 1 or 2 more mogtomes for securing 2nd. You could just as well make the same hypothetical argument that the larger reward for 1st place motivates people to actually want to focus on dragging the 1st place team down.

If 1st place is ever that far ahead where the general consensus of the teams are "fight for 2nd," then there's already a fundamental skill issue between the losing teams that probably wouldn't have been remedied by suddenly deciding they have to focus them down. Also, there's no achievement rewards for coming in 2nd x amount of times nor do the standard tomestones awarded for queuing differ between finishing 2nd and 3rd, so at that point you're saying that only a 1 or 2 mogtome difference is worth not teaming-up against 1st place.

I'll admit that 2nd and 3rd place teams fighting each other already happens, although it is more because of spite, tunnel-vision or general ignorance.

I'm not making an argument one way or another, I'm just pointing out that people will always take the path of least resistance.

So if 1st place gives 10 tomes, 2nd place gives 5 and 3rd place gives 1. If 1st place is far ahead or even just 100 points ahead but they've won engagements with both other teams before, the 2nd and 3rd place teams will very likely just turn on each other to claw out 2nd place rather than fight the team that beat them before.

This is very much a skill/experience issue, but it's also very likely to happen. After all, many wouldn't want to risk attacking the 1st place team while in 2nd place and trust that the 3rd place team will not backstab them to take the +4 tomes.

The difference is thar you're optimistic that people will go for the biggest reward and choose the correct decision, but I'm pessimistic because I've seen so many matches where 3rd place pinches us when we're 2nd place instead of attacking 1st place, which allowed 1st place to win for free.

[Cidel]

I'm not making an argument one way or another, I'm just pointing out that people will always take the path of least resistance.

So if 1st place gives 10 tomes, 2nd place gives 5 and 3rd place gives 1. If 1st place is far ahead or even just 100 points ahead but they've won engagements with both other teams before, the 2nd and 3rd place teams will very likely just turn on each other to claw out 2nd place rather than fight the team that beat them before.

This is very much a skill/experience issue, but it's also very likely to happen. After all, many wouldn't want to risk attacking the 1st place team while in 2nd place and trust that the 3rd place team will not backstab them to take the +4 tomes.

The difference is thar you're optimistic that people will go for the biggest reward and choose the correct decision, but I'm pessimistic because I've seen so many matches where 3rd place pinches us when we're 2nd place instead of attacking 1st place, which allowed 1st place to win for free.

Actually, 1st place wouldn't get more than 6 or 7, 1 or 2 more than what it's at currently. By comparison, 3rd place would only get 1 or 2, which is... 1 or 2 less than it is now. The 2nd place team can remain at 3 mogtomes. But anyway, If the leading team is somehow able to fend off both teams at the same time, while retaining their lead (and gaining/holding-on to battle high), then quite frankly there's nothing for the other 2 teams to do about it (and they're probably led by a DRK meta premade, or at least a competent shot-calling DRK). At which point let them fight each other; they're not getting 1st anyway. In my experience, such 1st-place stomps are the exception, not the rule.

That's why I find it difficult to believe that people would intentionally forgo attempting to fight the 1st place team (outside of those futile situations) with the possibility of 6-7 mogtomes to hold onto 2nd place's 3 mogtomes over last place's theoretical 1 or 2 mogtomes.

Frontlines has always been a bit of a game theory between the prisoner's dilemma and stag hunt. Can people be motivated to only go for 2nd place? Sure. I find that to be unlikely though, as most matches I see are somewhat close in score, and most "3rd place and 2nd place are attacking each other" situations only arise from grudges and people ignorantly tunnel-visioning objectives at the expense of the current score and potential objective placement on the rest of the map.

I'm actually more optimistic about it dissuading lethargic people from queuing for a guaranteed 3 mogtomes than I am about it incentivizing people into playing for 1st place instead of "throwing" to get 1 or 2 more mogtomes than last place. At which point if they're going to make an effort fighting to not be last, they're no longer lethargic. If they want a guaranteed 3 mogtomes, let them queue that hot mess Rival Wings.

[Aravell]

Frontlines has always been a bit of a game theory between the prisoner's dilemma and stag hunt. Can people be motivated to only go for 2nd place? Sure. I find that to be unlikely though, as most matches I see are somewhat close in score, and most "3rd place and 2nd place are attacking each other" situations only arise from grudges and people ignorantly tunnel-visioning objectives at the expense of the current score and potential objective placement on the rest of the map.

I'm actually more optimistic about it dissuading lethargic people from queuing for a guaranteed 3 mogtomes than I am about it incentivizing people into playing for 1st place instead of "throwing" to get 1 or 2 more mogtomes than last place. At which point if they're going to make an effort fighting to not be last, they're no longer lethargic. If they want a guaranteed 3 mogtomes, let them queue that hot mess Rival Wings.

We both simply have a different analysis of the FL situation based on our own experiences. You say 3rd place backstabbing 2nd place to secure 2nd place and let 1st place win is a rare occurrence, meanwhile my past 5 matches were exactly that scenario (on different maps too).

While 3rd pulling down 2nd happens now, it can happen more frequently when higher rewards are involved.

Like I said before, people will take the path of least resistance. Ever seen what happens when (let's say) red and blue pinch yellow at the mouth of their big ice area in Shatter and then yellow backs up into their big ice spot? Red and blue will usually converge and start attacking each other instead of one of them looping around and hitting yellow from the back ramp. I highly doubt that reducing 3rd place rewards would make people play correctly.

We can agree to disagree because you won't convince me this is a good idea and I won't convince you that people would just sabotage 2nd place for comparatively easier tomes.

[Cidel]

We both simply have a different analysis of the FL situation based on our own experiences. You say 3rd place backstabbing 2nd place to secure 2nd place and let 1st place win is a rare occurrence, meanwhile my past 5 matches were exactly that scenario (on different maps too).

While 3rd pulling down 2nd happens now, it can happen more frequently when higher rewards are involved.

Like I said before, people will take the path of least resistance. Ever seen what happens when (let's say) red and blue pinch yellow at the mouth of their big ice area in Shatter and then yellow backs up into their big ice spot? Red and blue will usually converge and start attacking each other instead of one of them looping around and hitting yellow from the back ramp. I highly doubt that reducing 3rd place rewards would make people play correctly.

We can agree to disagree because you won't convince me this is a good idea and I won't convince you that people would just sabotage 2nd place for comparatively easier tomes.

Its a rare occurrence for purely wanting a marginally higher reward. That's not to say it won't happen because the 3rd place team is full of aimless sheep following an equally clueless person who happens to be running towards the 2nd place team, or the current 2nd place team spent most of the game getting greedy and back-capping 3rd place's points so they refuse to want to cooperate in a push against 1st place.

The same logic can be applied to two teams more frequently focusing-down 1st place if the rewards are even higher. So that is to say, nothing changes.

The path of least resistance to what though? If they want more mogtomes they'll pick a different, more lucrative content if they're trying to farm it. That's the path to least resistance. Not fight for 2nd place for the same amount of mogtomes you can get for getting rolled in Rival Wings.

To the Shatter example, red and blue converging on each other isn't because they're actively trying to sabotage each other instead of yellow (who I assume is in 1st in this situation?), it's because they're not totally braindead enough to follow them into their chokepoint while another team is right there, and lack the aptitude of knowing when to back-off; something most people queuing for FL seem to lack. Reducing 3rd place rewards keeps lethargic play from being productive as far as mogtomes are concerned. Seriously doubt people would put in that much effort to sabotage 2nd place for 2 more mogtomes and run the risk of they themselves landing in 3rd.

[Windfire]

I'd rather they remove mogtomes from FL, it can stay in RW as that needs all the help it can get to pop, FL does not.

[IDontPetLalas]

I'd rather they remove mogtomes from FL, it can stay in RW as that needs all the help it can get to pop, FL does not.

Amen. I realize that there are those people who feel that FL is already a hot mess, however seeing the recent effects of mogtomes really seems to aggravate it. I don't see it affecting RW to the same degree.