Frontlines sucks Ultra megathread

[Aravell]

You also have no right to complain about these "non contributing" players who you belittle and call "feeders", if you're not willing to do anything to help them besides label them as useless and down play any contributions or efforts they're trying to put into the match. All this does is pushes people away from PvP. You learned on your own, great. Other people won't, either through lack of experience playing games with PvP in general, or they aren't naturally inclined. Ping them to retreat when Dark Knights are approaching. Announce that they need to stun Dark Knights as much as possible in a productive manner.

Will they listen? Sometimes. If you're rude about it, they absolutely WILL NOT listen to you.

If they aren't even reading Alliance chat, then take the L. It's better to try than to do nothing and then complain or be toxic towards them.

You seem to be making a mighty lot of assumptions about me.

I've helped my fair share of players get acclimated to every iteration of FL, in RW, in Feast and in CC. But sure, label me an unhelpful person who's just toxic for no reason.

You also seem to assume that I'm being toxic and calling these people feeders in chat. Thanks for making that assumption, but I don't, sorry to disappoint you.

I'm only pointing out that them existing in the alliance reduces your chances of beating a premade, that's an undeniable fact. It's also a fact that dying repeatedly to a DRK stack is actively reducing your points and increasing their damage, their contributions are basically negative, that is also a fact. Whether you want to agree that they're a feeder or not is irrelevant.

[Archeron]

You seem to be making a mighty lot of assumptions about me.

I've helped my fair share of players get acclimated to every iteration of FL, in RW, in Feast and in CC. But sure, label me an unhelpful person who's just toxic for no reason.

You also seem to assume that I'm being toxic and calling these people feeders in chat. Thanks for making that assumption, but I don't, sorry to disappoint you.

I'm only pointing out that them existing in the alliance reduces your chances of beating a premade, that's an undeniable fact. It's also a fact that dying repeatedly to a DRK stack is actively reducing your points and increasing their damage, their contributions are basically negative, that is also a fact. Whether you want to agree that they're a feeder or not is irrelevant.

Ignoring my question yet again. Excellent.

You give me plenty of ground to make assumptions when you're going around calling casual players "feeders" and labelling their contributions as useless, and accusing them of not trying. Now you turn around and try to paint yourself as a benevolent, helpful figure? Sorry, you've given me little reason to assume otherwise, especially when you openly admit to not respecting other people who don't play to your standards.

Nobody is even contesting that dead weight players are reducing your chances of fighting a premade. Again, if you want them to stop dying to Dark Knights that they either don't see coming, or don't know how to handle Call out their advance with a macro, or don't complain when they get killed repeatedly. You can't accuse them of not trying to contribute if they're actively running into combat, unlike the other dead weight players who'll just sit around the back lines casting zero spells, running away the second they take any damage at all, floating around doing literally nothing.

snip

Its those lazy players, who will continue to be lazy because of the way Frontlines is. The game mode is massively flawed. It's not fun, and I'm against Everything that makes it bad to play. The only solution to fix frontlines is a major overhaul, and fresh new content, that we're likely never going to get at the end of the day.

I defend the casual players from toxic attitudes. I do not defend laziness. They are participating in the best way they know how, that is more than enough for me to be satisfied. Can they do better? Absolutely. I will always provide those players the advice, and guides they need to improve themselves. But at the same time, I understand why players do not put their maximum effort into learning all the intricacies of Frontlines. Especially the rouletters. You want them to GTFO, well they're the reason the Frontlines queue even pops in the first place. I hate to break it to you, but not everyone is going to join servers, or ask questions on content they don't enjoy. The community being apathetic, and failing to play with a higher skill level is a symptom of a greater problems within frontlines. This is why the community Has not changed since 6.1. It will remain the same going into 7.0.

Everyone seems to think that just "raising the communities skill level" is the solution.
Why hasn't the community gotten better since 6.1 then? It's been almost 2 years since they implemented the last major overhaul to PvP. Thats plenty of time for people to have learned, even if they only did roulettes once a week, every week since 6.1.
The answer? Frontlines has gotten significantly less enjoyable since then. Shatter being ruined, Borderland ruins being outright deleted, and jobs being given nonsensical buffs/nerfs, and problems left to fester for 6 months at a time. The game mode is not fun. People will not put effort into things they don't find fun. If you don't fix that, the community will continue not to care.

[YouWereIndicted]

snip

Ah. I see...so we do agree on most things we just have different expectations on the playerbase. Agree to disagree, then. Apologies if I came off as hostile, was not my intent. But I for one am a person where if I am doing group content I always give it my all, no matter what it is (hence why I mentioned competitive spirit, by no means was I saying FL is competitive haha) so my viewpoint will stay as it is. I believe everyone should take the time to learn and improve at anything they engage in especially if it involves other people. If I was able to do it as a newer player there is no excuse for others. Of course, I have a heavy PvP background, regardless of that fact.

But you are right, people will not improve and in turn it may or may not cause them to not have fun as a result. I cannot control other people though, only myself. That is their prerogative. This is unfortunately an issue in this game in all of the PvP modes. Yes, even Ranked sometimes regardless of elo. I've not much else to say on the matter or else it would sound like I'm venting my frustration, which is not the case. Trust me, I am very much used to the slackers in these game modes haha I just adapt to them and gg go next if needed. Hence why I included a screenshot of a game I had in my last post. But yes, toxicity gets us nowhere and not once have I acted so. Most of the time I am silent as a crypt. I can handle an L even if its from feeding teammates. I hope you can find some enjoyment in the mode still. As do I, even if it means I have to find likeminded PvPers and premade if I have to. Or change my mindset, whatever the case may be.

If you're on aether feel free to hit me up! Sounds like you already joined some groups, but the more the merrier!

I am on Aether, it would be my pleasure to group up sometime and meet other likeminded PvPers. Guess I am eating my words of saying I won't be playing the mode anymore, haha. If you happen to run into a guy from Jenova with a funny costume and Adventure Plate...that is me

[YouWereIndicted]

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I don't know why you keep defending and excusing these lazy players. Man, I got into this game a year ago and PvP even less so in the grand scheme of things I consider myself a new player. What did I do? I asked questions towards the right people, joined some servers, read guides and the rest is history. Now I have every PvP reward I want.

You mentioned people not enjoying the experience and that is why they slack. I'm gonna be honest with you...I personally am not too big on MMO PvP, haha. It is definitely not my cup of tea and I much prefer other PvP and as we know, XIVs PvP is at the bottom of the barrel for MMO PvP. Despite this, I want what is best for the game mode regardless and I bring my best to my team and try my hardest because I'm on a team and they require me to do so. You mentioned overall the casual players finding the experience unfun and demotivating. You know what? I feel the same way when I'm on a team of slackers and people who don't care. This isn't a Frontline issue, it is a playerbase issue. People do this in roulettes, too. But no matter how much SE tries to make the PvP as casual as possible you cannot remove the desire to win and the competitive spirit from human nature. So, nah, no excuses...if you aren't here to give it your all, get out of my game and please get off of my team lmao. I completely understand why people group up with 3 others to pub stomp, it is the only way to have fun in this silly mode. You're disregarding other people who enjoy the mode and are trying. Me for example, I'm a solo queuer (mostly because I'm still new and haven't really bothered to make PvP friends yet) and these players we are going off about make me not enjoy the mode. Matter of fact, I'm most likely not playing this mode anymore until new rewards are released or until they do something with the mode.

http://imgur.com/a/30GQTtQ



Here is one of my last games going against a premade with a strong comp and using burst macros while I was not in a premade (sorry I don't know how to post images directly to my post). No need to show my teams' score. As you see I am at the top and none of them are near me. They all did way less damage than me and died a million times despite me being 1 of the 3 other melees on my team. While I saw the DRK burst coming from a mile away and avoided it. I even successfully killed some of them myself by counter bursting and my team still fed them BH after they respawned. Pointless, man. I'm sharing this to show that this is my experience pretty much every game unless I'm on a team of premades or good players which is rare. Nowadays I just queue to pad damage cause even times where I go on MNK to harass a premade (and successfully too) my team still feeds them and dies. As I said countless of times...premades are not the issue. This mode is a lost cause. Ranked CC is the only thing that has some kind of respect for effort and that is a mode on life support 99% of the time after the first week of the season.

[OliviaLugria]

I'm a solo queuer (mostly because I'm still new and haven't really bothered to make PvP friends yet) and these players we are going off about make me not enjoy the mode. Matter of fact, I'm most likely not playing this mode anymore until new rewards are released or until they do something with the mode.

If you're on aether feel free to hit me up! Sounds like you already joined some groups, but the more the merrier!

[Windfire]

If you're on aether feel free to hit me up! Sounds like you already joined some groups, but the more the merrier!

Inviting a bot runner to play with you? That's a big yikes, character name was Bgbhbhj Dfdvdfvdf(mysteriously gone with this mornings ban wave), so yeah, might want to check char names rather then account.

[YouWereIndicted]

Inviting a bot runner to play with you? That's a big yikes, character name was Bgbhbhj Dfdvdfvdf(mysteriously gone with this mornings ban wave), so yeah, might want to check char names rather then account.

Bot runner...wat. I change my forum accounts due to privacy concerns LOL. Dealt with some strange folk on this game, it's just a measure. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I've played with Olivia before and I'm sure if they saw my main they would recognize me. That "Bgbhbhj Dfdvdfvdf" account is a filler account I use for my FC for housing. All of my accounts are on Jenova. o_O wat. Being accused of botting when I'm just a lowly sprout...there's a first time for everything I guess.

Aaaaaaanyway. I've said everything I've needed to be said about this topic, I shall take my leave now.

[Aravell]

Snip

Uh huh, you claim I'm toxic and that I'm now painting myself as some benevolent angel. Nothing you've said about me is true, but you don't care, you disagree with me, so you think it's fair to paint me as evil, I've seen your type before. You ask leading questions and then get smug when people refuse to answer, you paint people who disagree with you as evil and toxic to the casuals, you're not worth talking to, I bid you a good day.

[Valence]

I won't claim that I've read the whole thread. Here is my current view on FLs, especially having engaged into them a lot more during the current mogtome event:

I'll use the word premades liberally to describe premade groups consistently made with the attempt to win by using certain job combinations (around a DRK mostly likely) and coordination in order to stomp half an enemy team to dust. This doesn't include most of the light parties (or duos/trios) queuing up casually with friends playing their favorite non meta jobs, or just not synchronizing or using meta plays.


Personal experience

Yes, I have friends that got pissed by premades and decided to not bother much anymore. But most of them just don't care or even noticed. That's how clueless most of the pvp casuals in the intricacies of the mode are. They're queuing for their daily, and they have genuine fun with it, like most dailies. This is why I do believe the idea that it pushes away many people away from it is exaggerated. What tends to push away newcomers to the mode is the utter chaos and making sense of what's happening, and it's inherent to the mode on its own. The day they improve this new player experience to actually upgrade player retention beyond the daily roulette, perhaps the negative impact those premades are having on casuals would become more of a thing. Or perhaps i'm totally misreading the casual pvp base idk.

Fact of the matter is, that most people who like to complain and bring up moral arguments about how harmful everything is to the casual playerbase are actually self projecting, for the very reason they're good or at least decent, veteran pvp/FL players and they have enough clues on the dreadful impact premades can have. I've seen an explosion of more consistent premades grinding everything to dust notably on seal rock or shatter in the current event where you end up with 2 teams with close to 0 points and 1 with a victory.

I've been on both sides of it, the receiving end is at least somewhat funny in that I can use anti premade jobs like MNK to just kill them one by one (if the team is following, not always a given...), but this also forces me to play specific jobs in order to even enjoy the games in question. Am I gonna lose still? Oh yeah, definitely. But at least I can enjoy toying with their best players, that's the silver lining. Being on the side of the premade when you're not in the premade is the worst experience ever for a competent solo queuer for two main reasons: one, as a loose field commander, nobody needs me in that regard, and two, even if I try to participate by playing DNC, or any job helping the premade to secure their kitchen sinks, most of the time I arrive too late to matter, or my only purpose is relegated to clean up the 2 half dead enemies left. The premade already has everything it needs to operate their kitchen sink and vacuum all the opponents into dust. You as a solo queue player, is literally irrelevant, and it's the most boring thing ever.

My take on this: premades are actually harmful to the enjoyment of the mode for solo queue pvp vets, not for casuals. I'm not gonna say it doesn't grind the gears of casual dying like that, but it's just not the same for the aforementioned reasons.

Counterpoint: solo queue veterans could make their own premade groups, and I'm sure some aren't opposed to the idea (myself included), but it's like telling a CC player that they should drop all solo queue in CC and only partake into scrims or LPs. It's not practical for obvious reasons (and I also like playing solo because your premade friends aren't always there you know?).

Premades

On the matter of premades, I'm not going to fall for the low hanging fruit and blame them for all the woes in the world. They're playing with the tools they're given by SE in a pvp mode in order to secure victories. I don't know personally how they're even having fun with this because it reminds me strongly of the old 8 man full BH5 ninja premades seal clubbing during SB before the party size nerf, which was awful, where you had one group literally running around and clubbing to death casuals just hitting crystals in shatter for example, eventually leading to non premade teams just staying in their spawn and wait until it was over, and doing it again and again game after game until the premade got bored and stopped queuing (we're not rendered there yet fortunately, count your blessings). But if that's how they're having fun, then so be it.

I also do not want SE to ever remove the possibility to queue up as parties of friends, even if it would honestly probably half fix the problem by making a sizable sacrifice in social play.

Discrepency between casuals and tryhards

This leads me to the next point which is many premade players actually hoping for people to become better and learn the tools to deal with the meta, which, spoiler alert, is highly unlikely to ever happen and is at best, wishful thinking. Not only does it forces people to play specific jobs to adjust, but it also counts on the fact that casuals or even solo queue vets even want to play that meta in the first place (which is a completely different kind of game). The idea that every casual player will suddenly try and look for premade groups before queuing for their daily is frankly ludicrous. The idea that premade groups will spontaneously form up and be able to synchronize LB meta plays is ludicrous.

The problem is the mode

We can complain however we want about premades ruining games or solo queuers too lazy to find their own premades, the problem remains the mode and how it is designed and maintained. I'll die on that hill.

[Mawlzy]

My take on this: premades are actually harmful to the enjoyment of the mode for solo queue pvp vets, not for casuals. I'm not gonna say it doesn't grind the gears of casual dying like that, but it's just not the same for the aforementioned reasons.

This is entire post is great and I hope everyone interested in this topic reads it thoughtfully. Your point about vets projecting (claiming casuals were being driven off by premades) really hit home; I suspect I'm guilty of that. As you explain, solo vets have the worst experience when on the same team as the premade. It's akin to running an uninteresting dungeon for the 2000th time as a caster when all the trash mobs are cleaned up by ranged.

The commanders of premades have made it very clear they don't care that they create a miserable experience for solo vets. And thus skilled players leave the mode. The mode may be the root problem, but that problem is being deepened significantly by a tiny fraction of the player base.

Anyway, thanks Valence, your post is a beautifully clear description of the issues I've been bleating about. I can now quit posting on the topic. And probably quit FL.