Feedback: Feeling disappointed by 6.55's narrative, and thus unsure about Dawntrail

[LilimoLimomo]

Overall, I was disappointed by the initial lead-in to Dawntrail, so I'm providing this feedback in the hopes that it can serve as constructive criticism.

Issue 1: Backing a political candidate that we know nothing about

By the end of 6.55, Krile, Alphinaud, Alisaie, and the Warrior of Light have all pledged to make Wuk Lamat the leader of her nation, despite knowing:

• next to nothing about Tural, its people, and their needs
• next to nothing about Wuk Lamat, except that she seems unwilling to admit her own weaknesses
• nothing about Wuk Lamat's political platform and goals
• nothing about the 3 other contenders for the throne

You would have to be incredibly apathetic about the well-being of Tural's people to pledge support to someone's political ambitions with so little information. And we know from experience that the Scions are in no way apathetic, as time and again they have interjected themselves into countless political struggles with the intent of making life better for people across multiple shards (Ishgard, Doma, Eulmore, Garlemald, etc).

Similarly, we know that the Scions have first-hand experience dealing with the life-and-death decision-making that is required of those in leadership positions. From Alphinaud's time as the leader of the Crystal Braves, to assisting Aymeric in trying to unify Ishgard, to ousting ineffective leaders and trying to rebuild afterwards in places like Eulmore and Garlemald, the Scions have accumulated a wealth of knowledge that should make it clear that putting a person in a position of power over others is not a matter to take lightly.

It's so incredibly out of character for any member of the Scions to pledge allegiance to a near-stranger with so little understanding of the situation's context. I could imagine them agreeing to consider such an arrangement down the line — after they performed the due diligence of investigating and learning — but that's not what happened.

And while Alphinaud, Alisaie, and Krile all have their own reasons to want to visit Tural, none of them require entering the service of Wuk Lamat. The twins' mother is beyond rich; if Estinien can afford a ship to Tural, so can they.

Issue 2: Forced to agree?

Wuk Lamat asks us: "Will you lend me your strength, and help me win the throne of Tuliyollal?" And she gives us time to think of our answer.

Away from Wuk Lamat, G'raha Tia gives us a monologue on a bridge, telling us that we don't need to commit to Wuk Lamat right away, that we can make that decision down the line after we've explored Tural. Which, despite its patronizing tone bordering on infantilizing, is good advice.

But then when we reconvene with Wuk Lamat, she says, "You have the look of someone who's made up their mind. Go on then, let's hear it." And the only answer we have yet to give her is the answer to her earlier question: "Will you lend me your strength, and help me win the throne of Tuliyollal?"

We are given two very similar options:

• "I wish to boldly go where I've never gone before!"
• "I've never been one to turn down an adventure. I'll do it."

I chose the first, because of the two it sounded the least like I was committing so something. But Wuk Lamat's reply made it sound like I had just agreed to support her in claiming the throne:

"Excellent! You'll be compensated for your troubles, of course, but your time in Tural will be its own reward!"

So it really seems like, in spite of G'raha's suggestion, we've been forced to pledge support to Wuk Lamat right away. And that's a bummer.

Issue 3: Urianger and his secrets

In 6.55, we are shown that Thancred was eavesdropping on G'raha Tia's and the Warrior of Light. And that he then shared these ill-gotten secrets with Urianger. And that neither of them seemed to think there was anything wrong with this.

Which was disheartening, because after going through so much together, it felt like these two were supposed to be our friends. And that's not how you treat friends.

Especially considering recent events in the previous expansion. One of my favorite parts of Endwalker was the heart-to-heart that we had with Urianger on the moon, where he reflects with regret on his history of subterfuge.

And now here he is, choosing to keep new secrets from the friend he had that conversation with, instead of being open about it.

Issue 4: It's silly that nobody knows anything about Tural

Sharlayan is a nation that has hungrily hoarded knowledge for hundreds of years. And beyond learning for their own sake, they also were entrusted with the responsibility of preparing all life on the planet for an exodus to the moon. Given these twin contexts, it's comically absurd how little information there is in Sharlayan about Tural. Especially when you've got folks like Erinville going to and from there.

I get that it's a better story if we just go there and experience it first-hand, and I agree! But there's no need to frame it like that's the only way to learn these things. It could just be the preferable way.

The game even already has its own oft-repeated phrase on this topic: "History is learned, not lived". With the implication that "living" would be more accurate. Ergo, it would be better for us and our companions to go and live this culture than it would be to simply learn of it. Etc.

I'm hoping that future patches can find a way to somehow improve these faults. Thanks for your time and consideration.

[Ath192]

Overall, I was disappointed by the initial lead-in to Dawntrail, so I'm providing this feedback in the hopes that it can serve as constructive criticism.

...

I'm hoping that future patches can find a way to somehow improve these faults. Thanks for your time and consideration.

Like I said in another thread, this whole world is controlled by political leaders installed or backed by the scions of the seventh dawn. And we are an overpowered god with no equal among the planet anymore. Stuff just doesn't make sense and even though we portray it as fighting for good the truth is we have taken over the world and there is noone that can oppose our will.

IDK about you but I don't feel like an adventurer and this doesn't feel like fun anymore. We are an oppressor, and there is no nation that has been able to withstand our expansion.

Nice stuff SE. If we make it pretty and talk about doing it for the right reasons we good though.

[Swordsman]

Like I said in another thread, this whole world is controlled by political leaders installed or backed by the scions of the seventh dawn. And we are an overpowered god with no equal among the planet anymore. Stuff just doesn't make sense and even though we portray it as fighting for good the truth is we have taken over the world and there is noone that can oppose our will.

IDK about you but I don't feel like an adventurer and this doesn't feel like fun anymore. We are an oppressor, and there is no nation that has been able to withstand our expansion.

Nice stuff SE. If we make it pretty and talk about doing it for the right reasons we good though.

Yep, perfect example of the old saying: "Might makes right."

"Descriptively, it asserts that a society's view of right and wrong is determined by those in power, with a meaning similar to "History is written by the victors." That is, although all people have their personal ideas of the good, only those strong enough to overcome obstacles and enemies can put their ideas into effect, and spread their own standards to society at large."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Might_...e%20victors%22.

[Ath192]

Yep, perfect example of the old saying: "Might makes right."

"Descriptively, it asserts that a society's view of right and wrong is determined by those in power, with a meaning similar to "History is written by the victors." That is, although all people have their personal ideas of the good, only those strong enough to overcome obstacles and enemies can put their ideas into effect, and spread their own standards to society at large."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Might_...e%20victors%22.

Agreed, I'm not huge on the morality of empires personally, they come and go, conquer, destroy and build, what doesn't feel fun for me is that we are at such an endstage in our power levels that we are Thanos with all infinity stones equipped and no time travel discovered.

TBH I don't know if you know the story of the Aztecs but essentially:

" Meanwhile, Cortes was planning to conquer the Aztec empire. He
started out toward their major city, Tenochtitlan (the-nock-TEE-tlan). It
was where Mexico City is today. Along the way, Cortes fought and
defeated the local natives. Some of these Indians were more hostile to
the Aztecs than to Cortes. They helped him in his attack on the Aztec
empire."

In this case we have a local native bringing in another outside power to seize the throne by force in this contest. What little they know is that because they have done this now they will be beholden to us and they will only think they are in power when in reality we will be. Not dissimilar to the Indians that helped Cortes take out their other local enemies, surely hoping they would get something out of it (they didn't). So if they wanted to avoid the look of colonialism, they kinda failed, and quite frankly, conquest happens everywhere, so that's not entirely the issue. To me the issue is that the WOL is involved its already GG for the other side.

There is literally nothing we can't murder by brute force that will prevent Wuk or whoever we bless with that throne. And then Alphinaud will teach them the right way to lead, probably.

It would've been a lot better if we simply got a native explorer looking for people daring enough to find a lost city or something and we left the government out of it.

[SoloWingMetatron]

Like I said in another thread, this whole world is controlled by political leaders installed or backed by the scions of the seventh dawn. And we are an overpowered god with no equal among the planet anymore. Stuff just doesn't make sense and even though we portray it as fighting for good the truth is we have taken over the world and there is noone that can oppose our will.

IDK about you but I don't feel like an adventurer and this doesn't feel like fun anymore. We are an oppressor, and there is no nation that has been able to withstand our expansion.

Nice stuff SE. If we make it pretty and talk about doing it for the right reasons we good though.

Yep, perfect example of the old saying: "Might makes right."

"Descriptively, it asserts that a society's view of right and wrong is determined by those in power, with a meaning similar to "History is written by the victors." That is, although all people have their personal ideas of the good, only those strong enough to overcome obstacles and enemies can put their ideas into effect, and spread their own standards to society at large."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Might_...e%20victors%22.

Except this does not accurately depict the WoL's story at all...

- 2.x - WoL saves the known world from the Garleans/Ascians attempt to bring about a new Calamity.
- 3.x - WoL further preventing Garlean/Ascian attempts to bring about Calamity - Prevents all out war between Dragons and Ishgard by toppling a dictator pope and his knights who like to throw kids off cathedrals.
- 4.x - WoL yet again thwarts Garlean/Ascian attempts for another Calamity - Helps free the enslaved Ala Mhigans by destroying Garlean/Ascian presence in that region.
- 5.x - WoD saves a whole planet from destruction by holding back a Calamity caused by Ascians.
- 6.x - WoL literally prevents the Apocalyse.

None of the WoL's acts have anything to do with oppression...Had the WoL not acted in these moments the world would literally have ended multiple times over!

[Swordsman]

Except this does not accurately depict the WoL's story at all...

- 2.x - WoL saves the known world from the Garleans/Ascians attempt to bring about a new Calamity.
- 3.x - WoL further preventing Garlean/Ascian attempts to bring about Calamity - Prevents all out war between Dragons and Ishgard by toppling a dictator pope and his knights who like to throw kids off cathedrals.
- 4.x - WoL yet again thwarts Garlean/Ascian attempts for another Calamity - Helps free the enslaved Ala Mhigans by destroying Garlean/Ascian presence in that region.
- 5.x - WoD saves a whole planet from destruction by holding back a Calamity caused by Ascians.
- 6.x - WoL literally prevents the Apocalyse.

None of the WoL's acts have anything to do with oppression...Had the WoL not acted in these moments the world would literally have ended multiple times over!

Yeah, you're right. We didn't oppress our enemies, we just killed them. Lmao.

[Metalface_Villain]

Yeah, you're right. We didn't oppress our enemies, we just killed them. Lmao.

what you guys are saying is similar to someone killing the nazis and then we call them oppressors because they killed the genocidal maniacs xD ironically enough irl america did take their place and became the global oppressors but still you can't call them oppressors for killing pure evil mofos that wanted to do nothing but evil. furthermore the wol never used their power other than to defeat the bad guys of the game, they didn't turn into modern day america. you guys are way off with the oppressor thing but you are right that this obviously doesn't feel like an adventure because we are extremely overpowered, that's a pretty bad direction to take the game but there really isn't another way to go, the game should have ended after ew tbh, with ff17 taking it's place and a new adventure starting from scratch.

[Ath192]

Except this does not accurately depict the WoL's story at all...

- 2.x - WoL saves the known world from the Garleans/Ascians attempt to bring about a new Calamity.
- 3.x - WoL further preventing Garlean/Ascian attempts to bring about Calamity - Prevents all out war between Dragons and Ishgard by toppling a dictator pope and his knights who like to throw kids off cathedrals.
- 4.x - WoL yet again thwarts Garlean/Ascian attempts for another Calamity - Helps free the enslaved Ala Mhigans by destroying Garlean/Ascian presence in that region.
- 5.x - WoD saves a whole planet from destruction by holding back a Calamity caused by Ascians.
- 6.x - WoL literally prevents the Apocalyse,

None of the WoL's acts have anything to do with oppression...Had the WoL not acted in these moments the world would literally have ended multiple times over!

Let me reverse this for you to see if you understand the point.

2.X the WoL destroys a major milestone in the Ascians saving their civilization and restoring their society
3.X the WoL beheads the leadership of Ishgard because they wanted to go to war with the dragons, we decided we knew better and that the pope was no longer fit to lead.
4.X the WoL overturns the expansion of Garlemald to restore the independence of nations who probably at one point, conquered those lands from others as well. Does not touch the Azim steppe society even though its a warmongering society that decides leadership by brutality because they shared a common enemy, Garlemald.
5.X the WoL destroys any hope of the Ascians ever restoring the planet to the way it used to be before a rogue faction led by Hydaelyn decided to send everyone to oblivion because they didn't agree with Zodiark
6.X WoD does prevent an apocalypse by a depressive bird

We literally solved everything with violence, and good here is subjective.

[SoloWingMetatron]

Yeah, you're right. We didn't oppress our enemies, we just killed them. Lmao.

Damn right!....Had we not the world would no longer exist!!...."Lmao - I was the only one who could prevent the world from literally exploding but chose not to because you know...I didnt want to kill the thing causing it"....

Let me reverse this for you to see if you understand the point.

Snip.

2.X the WoL destroys a major milestone in the Ascians saving their civilization and restoring their society

- This is the only credible critique to the WoL's actions. If the Ascians were the "true" selves of all intelligent life...Then there is an argument to be made that the Ascians goals were what was "good "all along...But as you said what is "good" is subjective

3.X the WoL beheads the leadership of Ishgard because they wanted to go to war with the dragons, we decided we knew better and that the pope was no longer fit to lead.

- Ishgards leadership was clearly depicted as corrupt through out - Murdering and enslaving civilians and were the reason the war began to begin with. It clearly shows the Dragons never asked for war!

4.X the WoL overturns the expansion of Garlemald to restore the independence of nations who probably at one point, conquered those lands from others as well. Does not touch the Azim steppe society even though its a warmongering society that decides leadership by brutality because they shared a common enemy, Garlemald.

- Garlemald ran by an Ascian in disguise that has ensalved an entire population...You are critiquing the WoL for ending slavery of Ala Mhigans and giving them back autonomy?...
*"restore the independence of nations who probably at one point, conquered those lands from others as well." - Fan fiction/speculation isn't a defense

5.X the WoL destroys any hope of the Ascians ever restoring the planet to the way it used to be before a rogue faction led by Hydaelyn decided to send everyone to oblivion because they didn't agree with Zodiark

- See point 1

6.X WoD does prevent an apocalypse by a depressive bird

- So in spite of everything had the WoL not acted everything would have ended no matter what and there would be no existence for 7.0 to even take place,

[OliverQ]

Let me reverse this for you to see if you understand the point.

2.X the WoL destroys a major milestone in the Ascians saving their civilization and restoring their society
3.X the WoL beheads the leadership of Ishgard because they wanted to go to war with the dragons, we decided we knew better and that the pope was no longer fit to lead.
4.X the WoL overturns the expansion of Garlemald to restore the independence of nations who probably at one point, conquered those lands from others as well. Does not touch the Azim steppe society even though its a warmongering society that decides leadership by brutality because they shared a common enemy, Garlemald.
5.X the WoL destroys any hope of the Ascians ever restoring the planet to the way it used to be before a rogue faction led by Hydaelyn decided to send everyone to oblivion because they didn't agree with Zodiark
6.X WoD does prevent an apocalypse by a depressive bird

We literally solved everything with violence, and good here is subjective.

Some Spoilers here, read at your own risk.




The Ascians' goal was literally to wipe out all life on the Source and every shard so they could bring back a "paradise" they screwed up and didn't deserve to have anymore. You can not seriously claim they were in the right in any of this story. We can question the morality of what Venat did with the Sundering, but what Emet-Selch and the others wanted wasn't any better. He doesn't even think any other living beings deserve to exist, because they're not perfect and there is nothing wrong with murdering them.

The Archbishop and the 4 houses spent centuries peddling a lie about the founding of Ishgard that guaranteed an aristocracy while the rest of the people suffered and lived in poverty. They declared war against the Dragons ages ago by murdering Ratotaskr, and now they're facing the consequences. Getting rid of the Archbishop and his evil knights was the correct action.

Garlemald and the Emperor were clearly evil and they were part of the Ascians plan to destroy the Source and its reflections. Again, stopping Garlemald was correct.


Why should the Ascians get to restore the planet they ruined, at the expense of everyone who currently exists? The Ascians had their chance, and they failed. So you think it's ok that they want to murder millions of people on the Source and all reflections?


Sorry, but your entire argument here is "It's totally cool if the Ascians want to go full mass-murder to bring back the good 'ol days because they don't think anyone in existence today deserves to live." That's not a good thing and I'm glad we were able to stop them.