New Shatter map... something Feels off.

[IDontPetLalas]

While I absolutely agree that premades will still get BH5 rapidly due to surprise attacks or pinches, I disagree that an alliance of equal skill is unable to deal with it. I've played, as a solo player, in a match against the dreaded DRK+RPR+DRG+DRG premade, not only did my team have no commander, we also stomped that premade so they can't even maintain their BH5.

You definitely do not need a premade to beat another premade, you just need a motivated enough team that has the skills for it. The hidden rating suggestion would help get a skilled team. Most of the wins I've gotten against an obvious premade were also silent in alliance chat with only maybe 3 calls of a direction to go towards throughout the whole match.

I also disagree that having people who don't try isn't destructive to the team. The less people you have attacking, the less chance you have of killing anyone, which heavily hurts your team's BH generation in the long run. I firmly believe that people who don't try are more destructive to your chances of winning than going against a premade.

Pretty much this, and even if we didn't win, in some cases we came close enough to make them work hard for their win. In any case I had a good time.

[Mawlzy]

I also disagree that having people who don't try isn't destructive to the team. The less people you have attacking, the less chance you have of killing anyone, which heavily hurts your team's BH generation in the long run. I firmly believe that people who don't try are more destructive to your chances of winning than going against a premade.

Sure, if the random matchmaking happens to assign you half a dozen people looking for a rock to hide behind, you're in bad shape. My point was that, on average, the presence of such players gets distributed across all teams. Contrast that to a premade which, due to their relative rarity, is much more binary. You're either on the team with one or your not, and that has a profound impact on how the match goes. They're not invincible, but the nature of the contest is changed, IME for the worse.

I think those of us obsessed enough with FL to be posting here all want the same thing. A higher overall skill level, or perhaps more accurately, a greater proportion of people who are genuinely giving it their best shot. That produces more interesting matches. Olivia suggests that her approach encourages that because it teaches people how to play (is that right?). My experience is that it does the opposite, largely because it removes agency and encourages the belief that the result is determined by factors a solo player cannot control.

Do we think skill-based matchmaking has any shot of happening? I can't see it. Is it desirable to separate wheat from chaff by massively reducing the rewards? I wouldn't mind that, but it's so antithetical to the philosophy of the NA player base I can't see it happening either. And I realize that some players simply like to queue with friends for reasons other than getting 85 assists per match. I don't want to remove that opportunity, but trying to balance FL around synergized premades seems like a case of the tail wagging the dog.

A question to those who do play in premades: Wouldn't it be much more fun for you if you could test your skills against other similarly-dedicated premades? It might have to be 8v8v8 with smaller maps. But surely that would be far more interesting for you?

[Mawlzy]

I tried to ask multiple times at the start of a game if people wanted to synergize some things together, never had a single reply. I offered to DRK, DRG, DNC... I even tried to ask the whole alliance if they wanted to try mass SCH just for the giggles and see how it goes. Nobody cares, and tbh, I don't mind either. I have the little fun I get in FLs by killing BH5 premade players, which offers a certain challenge and you can see immediately how they notice you as a threat and try to counter immediately. I like those little games.

I've tried, and often do get a reply, but it's usually "chill, bro, I'm here for the XP." Sigh.

Your attempt to get a bunch of people playing SCH is a perfect illustration of why solo players cannot do what a premade does, contrary to Olivia's claim. When she isn't running the DRK+, she sometimes runs a 4-SCH. Its rarity makes it much harder for randos to counter. Yes, in principle, a random team can decide to emulate this, but as you say, it simply doesn't happen on NA. We need solutions that apply to the real world, not an imaginary one.

The one area where I do have some optimism is that regular, more competent solo players will sometimes get somewhat organized when a premade has been stomping them over a couple of hours. It's amazing what getting pissed off can do for motivation. It's a pity blacklisting doesn't include preventing one from being on the same team as the blacklisted player. That would at least promote that little challenge of trying to derail premades, and remove the monotony of running around after them when teamed with them.

[Archeron]

It's hard to say that anything is coming for PvP these days. This entire expansion was focused on Crystaline Conflict, and that has been hit/miss at best. Ranked is certainly a ghost town, on practically every DC.

If they care about PvP, they will implement BASIC QoL changes like matchmaking, job adjustments, better maps, and adjustments to BH. Literally some of the most common sense changes that can be made in the time span of a single patch. If PvP isn't fun, people will not requeue.

-Give us King of the Hill, Capture the flag, or hell even an outright deathmatch betweeen 3 teams.
-Battle-high turns into battle-die. More vulnerability in exchange for the DPS bonus.
-Steal other ideas from MMO's with great PvP, and implement them here. (Within reason.)
-Play test every single change, before implementing them into the live game.
-Stop balancing jobs around CC, and then make Front lines deal with the aftermath of the adjustments.
-Stop taking 6+ months to make half hearted changes.
-Make winning matter. Either increase the roulette bonus for victory, or reduce the bonuses for losing matches.
-Hidden matchmaking systems.

I've tried, and often do get a reply, but it's usually "chill, bro, I'm here for the XP." Sigh.

Your attempt to get a bunch of people playing SCH is a perfect illustration of why solo players cannot do what a premade does, contrary to Olivia's claim. When she isn't running the DRK+, she sometimes runs a 4-SCH. Its rarity makes it much harder for randos to counter. Yes, in principle, a random team can decide to emulate this, but as you say, it simply doesn't happen on NA. We need solutions that apply to the real world, not an imaginary one.

It's like herding cats. It's rare, or nigh on impossible often times to get them to listen. Yes, theoretically randoms can be organized to crush premades. I love it when I can deny them their wins. But the premade players simply fail to see how much extra effort it takes us to fight them. They press 3 buttons and wipe entire alliances.

The random players on non premade teams have to do the following;

1. Listen to call outs of incoming attack from premade, or pay attention to the map themselves.
2. Spread out to limit the effectiveness of Salted Earth before they attack.
3. Stunlock Dark Knights before they can dive.
4. Nuke the Astrologians/Dragoons
5. Wipe up anyone else who remains, while dealing with likely the other team, and new node spawn(s).
6. Do not run away from combat and leave the people who are countering the premade to die.

That's asking a lot of teams with a variety of players of differing skill levels. In most cases, they do not have what it takes to counter the premade, and they will get steam rolled. Olivia may want to educate the playerbase, I appreciate the sentiment but I'll outright say it won't work with the attitudes we have in NA frontlines.

[TofuLove]

This is a shatter feedback thread, and not a place to complain about premades, you guys are getting confused.

BUT to entertain this conversation - premades are inconsequential to the discussion, and if anything it's MUCH easier to win in the new shatter game in a premade than it EVER was because of lack of any RNG - you can predict ice location and stomp the enemy team, the ice patterns repeat. Previous shatter at least had a bit of RNG. And the only solution to premades dominating the game is... more premades! We need more people grouping up and more people trying to communicate their strategies with each other - that way games would become balanced and more fun. I do agree that putting couple of premades into one alliance is bad, and I wish that didn't happen, because I like a bit of a challenge.

And for those criticising me running in a premade every once in awhile - I am sorry! I have friends in a multiplayer game that want to play with me, it's just how it is! We need more opportunities to collaborate with people and play with each other - not less.

p.s.
Btw when i say premade, you don't need to be on voice call - just need to be good reliable players that you know how to work with and would follow your call outs. And i also run solo, where my win rate is still 50%> because i frequently command and do the whole "follow D" waymark thing. My solo win rate in old shatter was definitely less, and i couldn't have improved so much.

[Mawlzy]

The random players on non premade teams have to do the following;

1. Listen to call outs of incoming attack from premade, or pay attention to the map themselves.
2. Spread out to limit the effectiveness of Salted Earth before they attack.
3. Stunlock Dark Knights before they can dive.
4. Nuke the Astrologians/Dragoons
5. Wipe up anyone else who remains, while dealing with likely the other team, and new node spawn(s).
6. Do not run away from combat and leave the people who are countering the premade to die.

Agree with all of this (point 2 is particularly difficult when the members of the team who are actually trying are zerging after a waymark), but would add a broader strategic issue. The nature of netcode/latency means there's a huge premium on aggression and getting the boot in first, much like a bar fight. When you know your three premade colleagues are coming with you, that aggression is much easier to initiate. For premades on voice, that advantage is massively amplified.

The evidence is all there in the K/D/A summary.

[Archeron]

And for those criticising me running in a premade every once in awhile - I am sorry! I have friends in a multiplayer game that want to play with me, it's just how it is! We need more opportunities to collaborate with people and play with each other - not less.

Then why play a meta DRK/DRK/AST/DRG premade that is made to steam roll? If you're just there to play with friends for fun, you wouldn't be going out of your way to form a sweaty premade. I don't care if you play with your friends, but if that comes at the expense of Literally everyone else who is queuing up for hours at a time expect to have that sort of behaviour called out, and critisized for what it is. We do not need more premades, we need less.

I also don't care if premades find the new Shatter more fun, or not. The meta for winning current shatter is not killing other players. It is smashing ice. The statistics outright support this. It simply doesn't matter what they do, one team is getting those 200 points unchallenged, while the other is not, and to make it worse, the team that is pinching is almost guaranteed to get pinched and destroyed themselves. It doesn't matter how predictable the spawns are. This map doesn't encourage PvP, it encourages PvE to win.

[Mawlzy]

This is a shatter feedback thread, and not a place to complain about premades, you guys are getting confused.

BUT to entertain this conversation - premades are inconsequential to the discussion, and if anything it's MUCH easier to win in the new shatter game in a premade than it EVER was because of lack of any RNG - you can predict ice location and stomp the enemy team, the ice patterns repeat. Previous shatter at least had a bit of RNG. And the only solution to premades dominating the game is... more premades! We need more people grouping up and more people trying to communicate their strategies with each other - that way games would become balanced and more fun. I do agree that putting couple of premades into one alliance is bad, and I wish that didn't happen, because I like a bit of a challenge.

And for those criticising me running in a premade every once in awhile - I am sorry! I have friends in a multiplayer game that want to play with me, it's just how it is! We need more opportunities to collaborate with people and play with each other - not less.

p.s.
Btw when i say premade, you don't need to be on voice call - just need to be good reliable players that you know how to work with and would follow your call outs. And i also run solo, where my win rate is still 50%> because i frequently command and do the whole "follow D" waymark thing. My solo win rate in old shatter was definitely less, and i couldn't have improved so much.

Agreed, and that would be achieved by separating queues into solo and party. You'd then have your utopia of all premades.

[Mistress_Irika]

I've yet to try out the new shatter mode. I will most likely never give the new shatter a fair trial. It's bad enough that I have to accept 2nd place games where the team afks and avoids as many fights as possible, but for this to be promoted? I'll continue to stay out. Not worth trying to pad for bh5 when majority already accepts to avoid as much fighting as possible for frontlines. I'm not sure how some find this playstyle to be fun. I would like to know the secret. My fun doesn't exactly come from winning. It comes from fights.

[TofuLove]

Then why play a meta DRK/DRK/AST/DRG premade that is made to steam roll? If you're just there to play with friends for fun, you wouldn't be going out of your way to form a sweaty premade. I don't care if you play with your friends, but if that comes at the expense of Literally everyone else who is queuing up for hours at a time expect to have that sort of behaviour called out, and critisized for what it is. We do not need more premades, we need less.

I am sorry, but you are building a strawman arguement and putting words in my mouth. You don't know me and how i play - I never said i run a DRK/DRK/AST/DRG premade - and often times i don't (and i don't think i ever had?)! Sometimes I play drk, sometimes i play paladin, sometimes i play samurai, sometimes i play white mage, sometimes i play ...every other class. I don't control what my friends play! Please build another strawman somewhere else and fight it there.

The meta for current shatter is super simple:
Step 1. Gain BATTLE HIGH by killing people
Step 2. Kill ice and enemy players that come to it.

It's literally is that simple and if you have a team that follows you - you kill people faster and get BH faster. I agree that encourages PVE - and that's why it's not fun.