/r/ffxivdiscussion: Has FFXIV had any major retcons or plot holes in the story?

[Swordsman]

Crossposting this over from the r/ffxivdiscussion subreddit because it has some interesting perspectives on the story of FFXIV as a whole, and it makes for a very interesting read.

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Original Post: "This question comes in the wake of a conversation I was having with a friend regarding the most recent WoW patch, which contained story content that was riddled with characterization issues (writers essentially making characters make decisions that were out of character) and a retcon or two, which is a Blizzard favorite.

My friend took a stance that it's excusable because MMORPG stories that span so many years are hard to keep consistent with previous lore. I argued that FFXIV hasn't had this sort of issue, and that SE puts forward a pretty great effort in making sure everything makes sense (even if people don't like it at times). Of course, "citation needed", but I was wondering if I'm just misremembering or if the writers at SE actually do a great job of not having to retcon stuff or leave plot holes wide open?"

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Some notable comments:

"You can't tell me that Yda actually being Lyse wasn't a retcon. It even makes cutscenes like Moenbryda's introduction kinda uncomfortable."

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"The biggest one is that in ARR there's this one scene with a bunch of ascians plotting or whatever, and I don't remember the details but that scene makes absolutely no sense considering what we know today of them. It's an issue of the devs having no plans for them at the time beyond "evil bad guys doing spooky stuff".

(I think the "retconned" part is that some of the ones present in that scene should be dead by all accounts, and have never appeared in the story beyond that one scene)"

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"I can think of a few.

The echo/blessing of light has gone through like three or four significant retcons, from stepping into people's memories to change the past, to just seeing the past/xenoglossy + tempering immunity, to specifically having the power to weaken the servants of darkness.

Are they the same thing, are they both gifts from Hydaelyn, or are they different things and only one of these abilities is a gift from Hydaelyn. And what exactly do the Crystals of Light given to Warriors of Light do?

When Venat says the Traveler's Ward blocks aetheric tampering, is she referring to tempering, light corruption, or both?

Another was the three forms of aether. In 1.0-2.0, it was Corporeal, Soul, and Anima, with the last one being the resource people drew upon to use aetherytes. It slowly regenerated over time, and even served a mechanical function in putting a cooldown timer on aetheryte teleportation. I think this is still even named by some NPCs hanging around low level zones. HW will make a nod in name only to Anima in the 'Anima weapons' relic questline, which is about creating and nurturing an 'artificial soul' within our weapons using our experiences as an adventurer. And I think that's it. 5.1 and 5.2 will retcon the three forms as aether as Corporeal, Mind, and Soul. And that detail is at the center of how we're able to undo the effects of light corruption and tempering (once again conflating these two things. Very helpful).

I think somewhere there's conflicting information about how far in the past the Bozja incident was, but I cannot remember where. I would not be surprised if some of this is from 1.0.

Nael vas Darnus. That is all."

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Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...plot_holes_in/

Feel free to discuss amongst yourselves below.

[CaptainLagbeard]

There's not really been any major retcons...

I think the scene with the Ascians in question I think there was that one where you had a whole bunch of them standing in some hall... Way more than there should really be...

[Embran]

There's not really been any major retcons...

I think the scene with the Ascians in question I think there was that one where you had a whole bunch of them standing in some hall... Way more than there should really be...

There have been a LOT of retcons.

That being said, retcons are apart of every story, good and terrible. The best retcons just hide them. I think FFXIV does this well.

I'd say what FFXIV doesn't have a lot of is plot holes and inconsistencies. They do a good job at covering those up. Sometimes the cover-ups are a bit too convenient, but they've at least not forgotten about many things.

Urianger and Y'sthola are the two "ah, you thought this was a retcon, but I will exposit as to why it's not (even though it actually is)" NPCs lol. Which is fine.

[Carin-Eri]

Arguable whether this one is a retcon or simply a plot point that was simply left hanging:
Zodiark's Crystal - which I've seen referred to as the 'FatherCrystal' (assume this is a fanon name since I don't remember any in-game dialogue that referred to it as such):


Although it was last seen just about visible beneath Zodiark's platform during 'The Dark Inside' I don't recall that there was any explanation regarding what purpose it served and what happened to it (following the Dark Inside trial). I mean, it's probably fair to assume that it served much the same purpose as the Mothercrystal, but I don't think it was ever confirmed one way or the other.

[Swordsman]

Wow this thread took off.

Although it was last seen just about visible beneath Zodiark's platform during 'The Dark Inside' I don't recall that there was any explanation regarding what purpose it served and what happened to it (following the Dark Inside trial). I mean, it's probably fair to assume that it served much the same purpose as the Mothercrystal, but I don't think it was ever confirmed one way or the other.

That's entirely true. Zodiark's Crystal fell through a plot hole and was never seen again.

[Turtledeluxe]

I'm not sure if I'd say recons but the story in general is made up as they go which can sometimes cause inconsistencies, contradictions, or otherwise problematic situations that just don't need to exist in the storytelling. The most infamous one I can think of is the cliche take that Venat is genocidal because the writers decided at the end of the arc to add in a time loop where she theoretically could have prevented the future. The take is incorrect because the writers clarify via Elidibus the type of time travel they're using for this single instance is one where the past and present become conjoined, making everything up to our journey to Elpis locked into the timeline i.e. no one including Venat can change it, no matter how hard they did or didn't try. They can only affect/change what happens post journey. You can pull all sorts of other instances in the game that make this ambiguous (thus, inconsistency) which is ultimately weakening the storytelling when it just didn't need to be that way.

And Yoshi P's own statements about it make it very clear, imo, they do not think about consistency on any particularly deep level and reserve it for obvious and simplistic elements.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

I'm not sure if I'd say recons but the story in general is made up as they go which can sometimes cause inconsistencies, contradictions, or otherwise problematic situations that just don't need to exist in the storytelling. The most infamous one I can think of is the cliche take that Venat is genocidal because the writers decided at the end of the arc to add in a time loop where she theoretically could have prevented the future. The take is incorrect because the writers clarify via Elidibus the type of time travel they're using for this single instance is one where the past and present become conjoined, making everything up to our journey to Elpis locked into the timeline i.e. no one including Venat can change it, no matter how hard they did or didn't try. They can only affect/change what happens post journey. You can pull all sorts of other instances in the game that make this ambiguous (thus, inconsistency) which is ultimately weakening the storytelling when it just didn't need to be that way.

And Yoshi P's own statements about it make it very clear, imo, they do not think about consistency on any particularly deep level and reserve it for obvious and simplistic elements.

They are using the same method of timetravel, the Crystal Tower, that G'raha used to change the past. Also, having her try to change things and having them end up the same way isn't what happened. The timeline is preserved because she takes every step to preserve it. Also, us traveling back does change the past, by telling her about the Sundering, we cause the Sundering. So we open our mouths to get people killed, but we keep our mouths shut when we could prevent their deaths. If the time loop cannot be changed then the WoL should be able to shout from the rooftops during Pandemonium and it wouldn't matter, but we don't tell these people what is coming for them, because we need them to die so we can have their parts.

And even if it was a closed loop that couldn't be stopped no matter what we did (even though we didn't try a thing). That would not change eradicating your entire species for being weak and replacing them with what you deem a stronger species being an act of genocide. It'd just be an unpreventable act of genocide, which this wasn't, this was an act of genocide we went for at every opportunity.

[Jeeqbit]

I don't see how any of those things actually interferes with what I've said.

The logic you're using about The Echo and The Blessing is in hindsight because of what was revealed to us in Shadowbringers and Endwalker. A lot of the things before that and some of the things after it don't really add up. They always used the terms kinda interchangeably, so anyone who'd played for a long time could see this was a massively difficult, but brave thing to try and distinguish at that point in the game.

We know the differences in hindsight, but again we've had people with The Echo face primals such as Arenvald. If Arenvald also had achieved the blessing (all elemental crystals), which protects him from primal influence, would he not also be a "Warrior of Light"? If so, why was he not referred to as such? The entire point was the blessing was what made us a Warrior of Light rather than just merely a "person with The Echo".

this was an act of genocide we went for at every opportunity.

The alternative was Zodiark, who had tempered all the other Ancients, would allow the remainder of them to sacrifice themselves to empower him, out of their misguided belief Zodiark would deliver them from despair. Zodiark would become even stronger and there would be nobody left. The exact thing that happened on every other star, which sacrificed themselves in similar ways. Like the ones who sacrificed themselves to Ra-La, the ones who fought a war against eachother and eradicated eachother or the ones who shed their flesh (the Ea) and then thought everything was pointless because they couldn't feel. Like the beast tribes sacrificed their kind endlessly to their primals.

They all had one thing in common: they pursued perfection and the result was their own destruction. The Ancients had that same goal and were headed in the same direction, destroying themselves in pursuit of perfection.

The solution, not being perfect and the benefit of having less aether is being able to interpret dynamis properly as a force to overcome the hardships that come with not being perfect.

In any case, the sundering may still have happened, but we would not have known who Fandaniel was, which we needed to. Hydaelyn may not have known to look out for us, but probably would recognize the spirit as Azem's and connect the dots with all the heroic adventuring.

[Turtledeluxe]

They are using the same method of timetravel, the Crystal Tower, that G'raha used to change the past. Also, having her try to change things and having them end up the same way isn't what happened. The timeline is preserved because she takes every step to preserve it. Also, us traveling back does change the past, by telling her about the Sundering, we cause the Sundering. So we open our mouths to get people killed, but we keep our mouths shut when we could prevent their deaths. If the time loop cannot be changed then the WoL should be able to shout from the rooftops during Pandemonium and it wouldn't matter, but we don't tell these people what is coming for them, because we need them to die so we can have their parts.

And even if it was a closed loop that couldn't be stopped no matter what we did (even though we didn't try a thing). That would not change eradicating your entire species for being weak and replacing them with what you deem a stronger species being an act of genocide. It'd just be an unpreventable act of genocide, which this wasn't, this was an act of genocide we went for at every opportunity.

It is not consistent with the myriad other examples of time travel used like with Graha. It's an exclusive choice for this one section of EW that is inconsistent with the rest of the game entirely.

Also, the detail they added about changing the state of man is, once again, another example of making things up as they go along. The sundering was literally never about that. They added it to make it make sense for the villain/dynamis. Then, in retrospect, it makes Hydaelyn looks genocidal. Originally it was just an attack aimed at Zodiark that had the effect of sundering all of reality (which is what it still is, really).

Elidibus exact words:

"As such, I believe I can deliver you unto the past. Unto that place and precise moment. Yet even should you manage to interact with others, you will unable to affect meaningful change. For the reality you wish to save-- the reality to which you must return-- exists as a result of the Final Days. You cannot rehsape the past to undo the tragedies of the present. Cannot unmake the sorrow and suffering fated to come."

Also, the story is absurd otherwise. We leave the past and Venat gives us an impression that they'll be "preparing" -- yet things end up exactly the same. Like, exactly the same. There's no way for you to make that make sense. It follows as Elidibus said-- this is a type of travel where changes to the past cannot interfere with the present. And yes, given the loop, it can be argued that the WoL invented the entire scenario by introducing all these elements to the past.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

*snip*

Everything you've said is headcannon that is not supported by anything told in the story that you've made up in order to justify the atrocity committed by Venat. If the Ancients are all tempered why is there disagreement over the third sacrifice? Why do the Loporits explain that tempering was added by the Ascians after the sundering? Why did Venat not warn them that Zodiark would temper them? Why did Venat steal the blueprints of Zodiark to make herself if he was such a bad guy? If primals are made based off the desires of the creators, why would a being created from the desire to save the world instead destroy it? You're making all this up because the truth of the story as it's told to us is that Zodiark had the means to restore their planet entirely. And Venat needed the human race to suffer in order to pass Meteion's test. When she sunders the world she says, "No longer shall man have wings to bear him to paradise." Does everyone dying while brainwashed sound like any descriptor of paradise to you? What is the distinction you're making between a perfect world and a better world? The Ancients wanted to get their loved ones out of the shield defending their planet against an attack Venat never warned them about. That's not perfection, that's just better. And the idea we shouldn't strive for a better world runs counter to every other moral in FF14. Why are we doing what we are doing if making things better will lead to our end? Why not make more war and death and kids freezing out in the cold if that is what it takes to become "strong"? Her belief system is nonsensical and falls apart if you think about it for more than 30 seconds. Venat didn't have soul sight as far as I'm aware, so if Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus didn't figure out we were a ripped up Frakenstiened Azem soul, then there is no reason to assume Venat would have. Plus, she needs more detailed information in order to let the Ascians go, so they can kill the exact number of people needed to make us. Because of the loop, we are now directly responsible for every rejoining as they happen specifically to ensure our creation.

*snip*

When he said this, he didn't know we'd be corporal. Secondly, this isn't even a tech invented by his species, why does he know the rules when those who invented it don't even know? Thirdly, we did change the past. We caused the Sundering. Had we kept out mouths closed the entire time, the Sundering never happens. It was only speaking that caused it. And after we cause it, we stop speaking to make sure it goes through. Sure it's the writers controlling our character to make sure they do exactly what is necessary to cause a genocide and nothing more. They wrote the WoL to knowingly be directly responsible for a genocide. Because once the wheels are set in motion, the fact we then don't take action to stop it proves the WoL is complicit.