Wuk Lamat is the worst and most annoying character ever in this game

[Boblawblah]

A trans woman is a woman and a trans man is a man, I reject the premise that there is any discussion or debate to be had there.

Then is there a need for the term "trans"?

[Raikaiko]

Then is there a need for the term "trans"?

There is no difference between a trans woman and this platonic ideal, adjectiveless woman, and really I think when you get down into it, in a nuanced and intersectional discussion that adjectiveless woman is a concept that isn't functional and useful. Is there a difference in the experiences of trans women and cis women, yes, absolutely, but by that same token there is a difference in the experience of a black women and white women, between disabled women and able-bodied women, low socioeconomic status women and high ses women. "Women" is a set and all of these groups within it are subsets, but they are still a part of the overall set. Identities are so multifaceted, intersectional, and individual. You cannot define a platonic ideal of the set as a whole to compare the subsets to. When set X contains [a, b, c] you can compare "a" and "not a" but you can't compare "a" and N because N includes "a".

Set, subset

[Tahbitha]

I played through the 6.55 MSQ over the past few days and watched, and listened to, each and every cutscene in its entirety. At no point did I ever think there was anything wrong with the quality of the voice acting for Wuk Lamat. I still don't. But I tell you, I'd wish I'd stayed out of this thread.

[Boblawblah]

nope, there's nothing here for me

[NanaWiloh]

Is it possible to critize a actor without making their gender part of the conversation?? Thread seems to be putting a little too much focus on the VA gender.

[Turtledeluxe]

Typically we do not discuss things in their past state. If we convert a library to an office, we do not say "this is a library". When a human turns 21, we do not say "this is a baby". Although previous states are interesting, they do not account for the changes that have occurred. What would be the point of transitioning to anything if not to become that thing? That's the very definition of what it means. You transition, then the state has changed.

[Alaray]

Not really related to the voice acting, but

It's really a shame we can't have discussions about what it IS to be a trans woman/man, and how that differs (if you think it does or doesn't) from being a woman/man. Instead, we have one side that belittles/mocks the other side and thinks their mentally ill, and spews all sorts of hate, and the other side will often shut down all discussion with "A trans man/woman is a man/woman. period. there is no discussion".

Where is any sense of nuance in modern discourse? Makes me a bit sad.

To be fair, there's not much value in that kind of discussion most of the time. When it becomes interesting is when looking at things from a sociological, historical, philosophical angle where the people involved either (a) have actual education on the topic, or (b) are trans themselves and are expressing the way these things intersect together (and not every single trans person is necessarily good at articulating all that -- generally, trans people just want to be shown dignity and respect that'd be shown to cis people. I don't think that's ridiculous). I've had discussions with plenty of well meaning cis people, but there's always a breakdown in understanding if I were to go into those other areas as they aren't familiar with them, and don't have a foundational basis to work with, whereas with some other trans people, the discussion can also breakdown in a not dis-similar fashion. It's not necessarily "because they're stupid", it's a complicated conversation with a lot of nuance that does require some actual research/understanding to really engage with productively. And, not every trans person necessarily cares about this level of depth to their identity - since, ultimately, they just want to be treated with the same dignity/respect as their peers and counterparts and feel understandably upset/frustrated when [...]t on instead. (And it is frustrating when cis people act as if every trans person they encounter should have 8 phds on the topic).

Especially with a lot of media stoking reactionary responses, it becomes a lot more difficult, in general, as too many people latch onto whatever they heard x/y pundit say or a/b politician say and don't know how to actually do proper research (including understanding others' perspectives), or know how to practice the concept of empathy for people they struggle to relate to. "Othering" people is easy, empathizing with them and showing human compassion, respect and dignity is apparently difficult (I mean, I could even point to how people talk about murdering children across the globe right now, for an even more dire example of the same thought process at work).

Of course, though, I do wish people were more respectful of other people. But when someone's trying to claim "X is a bad person because X thinks trans women should have the opportunity to VA as trans characters" while editing tags of threads to specifically [...]t on a trans woman for simply having the trans identity, or use language they are fully aware is incendiary to try to "cleverly" hide their distaste for trans people... I'm just saying, I don't think it's worth listening to what they have to say anymore. Especially when they misunderstand the actual point that's attempted to be gotten across, and also when that point brought up has 0 bearing on performance quality (the supposed issue), and when that was written almost a year ago and is being brought up in a weird, creepy "this person said a thing I don't like" or whatever, "therefore they're bad and I'm good" from someone trawling through a social media account of a stranger, while I also bet sympathized with that one person for being removed from a XIV event or w/e that was for twitter opinions... it's just... disingenuous, unprincipled, and kinda uninformed to the point where it's like... "even taking all of that in, as if it meant anything... do you have reading comprehension or... no? Because you're not even clicking onto the actual point of it."

Which, this is just kinda... I understand what you mean -- I do enjoy talking in depth with other trans people about gender in general (Or, really, people who do understand a lot of foundational information and are curious people instead of incurious), it's a really deep, nuanced, interesting conversation when people have really thought about it. And it does sort of suck that there's a lot of people who aren't interested in ideas, and only in attacking people, and refuse to try and challenge their own perspective because it likely just makes them feel uncomfortable to do so. But I also don't consider both of the extremes equal, either -- since at the end of the day, yeah, the "other" side (ie: trans people for the most part) really do just want to be treated as a man/woman irrespective of the "trans" adjective. And there isn't a discussion about how poorly we should treat ___ group. That's just a trap and a stupid premise for a question when trying to understand other people.

Either way, there are times on the forums when there's some decent conversation (it's rare), and I think it's better to ignore the people who only think in a black/white dichotomy of reality who struggle with the concept of nuance and don't know how to behave like a normal person rather than feeding into their misplaced ego that's contingent on... uh, their forum personality, I guess?

[TaleraRistain]

I am not transphobic for saying a trans woman is a trans woman, it literally is self implied that they have transitioned to be a woman, that's why they are called trans women.

Enjoy your hiatus from the forums though.

If I misgendered them, I'd agree with you that it's transphobic, but I am not. They are a she, but they are still trans women.

But the word transition itself brings along the idea that something (be it a person or an object) existed in one state and has become another state. You are correct in that technically a trans woman is a trans woman. There are instances (medical services for instance) where that designation may be important to know. But I think the general idea is that in terms of how they should be designated in society is that they are fully what they have transitioned into. Thus it stands that a trans woman is a woman and a trans man is a man and should be treated the same as those assigned that at birth. I see a decent number of trans men and women on the bird app do use the term themselves. I think a lot of that is because that representation is needed now, because we're not quite to the point in the society where we can treat them as they should be treated.

[Turtledeluxe]

But the word transition itself brings along the idea that something (be it a person or an object) existed in one state and has become another state. You are correct in that technically a trans woman is a trans woman. There are instances (medical services for instance) where that designation may be important to know. But I think the general idea is that in terms of how they should be designated in society is that they are fully what they have transitioned into. Thus it stands that a trans woman is a woman and a trans man is a man and should be treated the same as those assigned that at birth. I see a decent number of trans men and women on the bird app do use the term themselves. I think a lot of that is because that representation is needed now, because we're not quite to the point in the society where we can treat them as they should be treated.

Correct. Sena herself uses the term trans woman but the key is that, depending on the trans person and where they are in their journey or where they are contextually at the time, it can also be appropriate or even preferred to refer to them as a woman. Blonde hair is blonde hair but it's also hair. That person still has hair. Moreover you can't stop someone else from considering a trans woman a woman anyway, so it's useless to fight.

[Mithron]

But they're trans so if you dont like them or just dont like their behavior and find them aggressive, that's transphobia !

This is the world we live in now

...and then one day, for no reason at all, people started hating the voice actor

Very glad to oppose this voice actor.