Politics

[MikkoAkure]

And the fact that we've been told one of them wants to invade us makes our actions worse, not better, because that means we're installing her to serve our own political interests. That's colonizing.

So if it’s in their people’s best interest to invade us we should just let it happen without investigating or doing anything about it because to prevent it is colonization?

The other thing I’d like to point out is that Tural is a monarchy. The current king of Tural has 4 heirs and gave them a trial to become the next ruler using the means at their disposal. They are well within their rights to enlist outside help, especially if one of their competitors wants to start a war they disagree with and they can get mercenaries from that region to help stop them.

If we were starting a coup and installing a dictator that would be one thing, but the current monarch is stepping down and allowing his 4 heirs to compete against each other for the throne. As a monarchy, the people have no say in what goes on regardless whether we were involved or not and if you think it is in their own best interest that a warmonger take the throne and start a world war, you are delusional.

[Palladiamors]

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I love how you admit that you didn't do any research on either of them and then proceed to attack one with no prior knowledge of either previous posting history then you get preachy while sitting atop your high horse.

As for the rest of that...post, you're doing the exact same thing Silvermoon is doing except worse. You're making a whole lot of assumptions and leaps in logic that aren't backed by anything in game AND TRYING TO JUSTIFY IT USING REAL WORLD EXAMPLES. To call it asinine would be an understatement, especially when you use the 'tired of war' example when one of the expressed reasons for potentially siding with Wuk is preventing a war by winning a contest.

There's theorizing and then there's spinning a whole yarn from nothing. You and her both are doing the latter and adding in nonsense that doesn't need to be there.

I'm not even defending the writing here, I think it's been crap since Shadowbringers, I just hate it when people assume a bunch of stupid stuff about a writers work based on literally zero evidence. Sometimes the sky is just blue.

[Vyrerus]

Well, all of our assumptions are only that. Wuk Lamat could be lying to us about outsiders being encouraged. Could be lying about the intent of her rivals. Could be lying about her own intent.

Now, that's not really XIV's soft serve, bouncy castle way these days, but it is not outside of the realm of possibility.

I'm not too worried about coming across as colonizers. We have no colony making efforts, and they mentioned this Super Secret Agent Prince Miqote who just so happened to seek a Sharlayan education for... reasons unexplained.

So I think in the end it'll come down to other factions getting eliminated, and Wuk Lamat taking up Sharlayan ideas maybe because Super Secret Agent Miqote brother implores her to after he's eliminated from the race.

Then all our different Scion factions will come together to beat the baddies. And everything will be hunkidori. Kumbaya.

Also though, it's something of a problem in this subforum for a lot of users to read someone's takes, and then write them off as trolls/bad faith etc. Simply for seeing the story in a different light. Ironically, it's also somewhat bad faith itself, because intent was presumed, and a step even further was taken in insulting or belittling the poster with aggravating takes. This is a public forum, so if you want to curate your experience, please use the ignore/block feature. It's not that hard. And yes, you'll still see quotes or boxes scrunching up their conversations, but you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

[MikkoAkure]

Also though, it's something of a problem in this subforum for a lot of users to read someone's takes, and then write them off as trolls/bad faith etc. Simply for seeing the story in a different light. Ironically, it's also somewhat bad faith itself, because intent was presumed, and a step even further was taken in insulting or belittling the poster with aggravating takes.

It’s one thing to disagree based on the lore of what is actually in the game. It’s another to put a personal spin on it and go straight into phrases meant to start a fight like “Venat’s fascist agenda” and “doing a colonialism”.

If there’s any notion that we’re being lied to, while that hasn’t been hinted at yet, it’s certainly possible and I’d say is fair game to talk about. But going straight into “we’re colonizers for getting involved in someone else’s succession trial where it was explicitly stated that outside help is allowed and it’s considered political meddling for trying to stop one’s own small city-state from getting invaded much a much larger and more powerful empire” is a take that’s going to raise a few eyebrows and be considered to not be appropriate for discussion.

It doesn’t help either that the poster first came into this subforum by necroing a bunch of threads all at once, which is the same behavior seen by trolls here in the past.

[NanaWiloh]

Its funny as Hell and complete irony that people are having issue with the WoL and the scions getting involved in another regions politics. This is not the first time they have done this kind of thing. Its laughable how people are acting like this now about it.

[ZavosEsperian]

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I don't see what point you are trying to make. To me, it appears you failed to read my post completely and are making assumptions based on what you elected to read.

Were you to read my post in full, you would notice I never said Silvermoon's position was my own. In fact I am rather used to arguing in this way because of various college classes I have taken, where positions were assigned to us and you have to be able to articulate a defense or an attack even if you do not believe in what those things are. Were you in my class, you would have failed the instant you said that first sentence.

In addition, there is no need for me to mention post histories here. To me, the statements I have made are correct based on what I have observed, and what anyone lese can observe, through lurking on the forums as that is usually what I do. I do not like engaging much where I don't have to nor having to cite things where it should be common knowledge to anyone who frequents the forums, specifically the lore forums.

I'm not even defending the writing here, I think it's been crap since Shadowbringers, I just hate it when people assume a bunch of stupid stuff about a writers work based on literally zero evidence.

I can agree with you in terms of MSQ past 5.3. Personally I don't actually hate political intrigue stories and I have yet to make any real opinions on any recent MSQ as it does take me some time to fully process everything. What I will say is that a glossed over point regarding the WoL is the WoL belonging to a military, as the WoL has to have joined one of the three Grand Companies at some point in time, and in case of a story skip this is actually assigned to whatever your starting nation was (if you started in Limsa, for instance, you will be automatically assigned to The Maelstrom unless you skipped after selecting a Grand Company). I do not think this particular topic will arise but it is something worth noting when going over everything in full, particularly when dealing with a more militaristic opponent who could have potential knowledge of your military standing.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

*snip*
If we were starting a coup and installing a dictator that would be one thing, but the current monarch is stepping down and allowing his 4 heirs to compete against each other for the throne. As a monarchy, the people have no say in what goes on regardless whether we were involved or not and if you think it is in their own best interest that a warmonger take the throne and start a world war, you are delusional.

We're not "investigating" we've agreed to compete in a contest to put a stranger in power for a free boat ride. The fact you have to downgrade our actions to "investigating" proves my point that what we're doing is both unwise and unethical.

We don't know if we're installing a dictator or not because we know nothing about her besides she's pretending to be braver than she is except when it comes to eating sus meat, she's very brave when it comes to that.

And again, we don't even know if the random person we're installing isn't a warmonger herself. We're not "protecting" anyone from anything by using our nuclear level power to influence politics in a region we've never even seen.

And please don't call me delusional. How people get away with insulting me so much on this forum is ridiculous.

It’s one thing to disagree based on the lore of what is actually in the game. It’s another to put a personal spin on it and go straight into phrases meant to start a fight like “Venat’s fascist agenda” and “doing a colonialism”.

*snip*

I've already explained in great detail why I believe murdering a group deemed as "weak" so that you can take their resources, their planet, their aether, their souls and giving it to a group you deem as "strong" is fascist. I can't simply decide to see it another way because that's not how belief works. I could be convinced, but people here are far more likely to resort to personal attacks than offer any perspective I haven't considered that would actually change my mind. I've already learned from past debates that to come to the same conclusion as you I'd have to hold several believes that not only contradict with my core values but contradict with each other. And I'm literally incapable of that. No one can decide to believe something they don't for the comfort of those around them. The best I could do is shut up about it and don't worry, the personal attacks will get me there soon enough.

Its funny as Hell and complete irony that people are having issue with the WoL and the scions getting involved in another regions politics. This is not the first time they have done this kind of thing. Its laughable how people are acting like this now about it.

While there have been instances of the WoL behaving unethically in the past, those didn't happen right after EW. The whole "the WoL is so special they are worth the lives of billions" has made me a tad sensitive to future actions. Like okay, Venat just *had* to set up billions of people to die horribly so we could be created because we were needed to save the universe, sure... Well what now? Well now we take that power bought with immeasurable suffering and set up puppet governments in foreign lands...

Really? That's really where we're gonna go with this? It's like the game is trying to get me to side with Amon at this point...

[Palladiamors]

Well, all of our assumptions are only that. Wuk Lamat could be lying to us about outsiders being encouraged. Could be lying about the intent of her rivals. Could be lying about her own intent.

Now, that's not really XIV's soft serve, bouncy castle way these days, but it is not outside of the realm of possibility.

I'm not too worried about coming across as colonizers. We have no colony making efforts, and they mentioned this Super Secret Agent Prince Miqote who just so happened to seek a Sharlayan education for... reasons unexplained.

So I think in the end it'll come down to other factions getting eliminated, and Wuk Lamat taking up Sharlayan ideas maybe because Super Secret Agent Miqote brother implores her to after he's eliminated from the race.

Then all our different Scion factions will come together to beat the baddies. And everything will be hunkidori. Kumbaya.

Also though, it's something of a problem in this subforum for a lot of users to read someone's takes, and then write them off as trolls/bad faith etc. Simply for seeing the story in a different light. Ironically, it's also somewhat bad faith itself, because intent was presumed, and a step even further was taken in insulting or belittling the poster with aggravating takes. This is a public forum, so if you want to curate your experience, please use the ignore/block feature. It's not that hard. And yes, you'll still see quotes or boxes scrunching up their conversations, but you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

There was no belittling of Silvermoon. Cleretic simply pointed out that her takes are often divorced from reality. Zavos, on the other hand, straight up attacked Cleretic for pointing this out with zero prior knowledge of either poster and weaved an entire narrative around how Cleretic was ignorant. After that I merely pointed out that Zavos was morally grandstanding and acting superior while also having zero evidence to back anything up.

And here's the kicker: For all we know Wuk could wind up being the major villain of Dawntrail. But right now there is less than zero pointing to that. She's friends with Erenville and we trust him and while he doesn't want to admit to being close to her, he did tell her about us and help her find us. We know she's a blowhard, combat scares her even though she is very skilled. We know her county encourages their claimants to seek outside help and Erenville not refuting that while outright agreeing with her about mystery claimant X backs all that up. We know that we haven't agreed to help and we know two of the Scions are backing another candidate.

None of that in any way form or fashion points to colonization or installing a figurehead or starting a war. Actually pretty much most of it points to the opposite. Which I'm starting to realize is probably why modern day writers are moving away from subtlety.

[MikkoAkure]

We're not "investigating" we've agreed to compete in a contest to put a stranger in power for a free boat ride. The fact you have to downgrade our actions to "investigating" proves my point that what we're doing is both unwise and unethical.

You can do more than one thing at the same time. We’re very obviously going over to see what is going on as well as putting in a little adventure and helping cat princess.

We went to Doma to cause a diversion to help our main cause in Ala Mhigo and at the same time help put a prince on the throne after his retainers asked for it. We ended up becoming temporary khagan (until the next nadaam) by helping a tribe who asked for it too. Was that colonization then?

And please don't call me delusional. How people get away with insulting me so much on this forum is ridiculous.

I said:
“if you think it is in their own best interest that a warmonger take the throne and start a world war, you are delusional.”

as in you’d have to be delusional to think a world war could be in people of Tural’s best interest but if you do, holy crap. A bunch of unaffiliated Eorzeans going to the west is bad, but a larger and more powerful western empire colonizing Eorzea is OK as long as it’s in their people’s best interest? When is a war for conquest in anyone’s best interest except for their ruler/ruling class?

[Lady_Silvermoon]

You can do more than one thing at the same time. We’re very obviously going over to see what is going on as well as putting in a little adventure and helping cat princess.

We went to Doma to cause a diversion to help our main cause in Ala Mhigo and at the same time help put a prince on the throne after his retainers asked for it. We ended up becoming temporary khagan (until the next nadaam) by helping a tribe who asked for it too. Was that colonization then?




I said:
“if you think it is in their own best interest that a warmonger take the throne and start a world war, you are delusional.”

as in you’d have to be delusional to think a world war could be in people of Tural’s best interest but if you do, holy crap. A bunch of unaffiliated Eorzeans going to the west is bad, but a larger and more powerful western empire colonizing Eorzea is OK as long as it’s in their people’s best interest? When is a war for conquest in anyone’s best interest except for their ruler/ruling class?

Yes, I did take issue with what we did in the nadaam. I watched other people play and get annoyed they had to pick up poop because they are the "chosen one" and my stance was we are showing up in these people's land to take control of their government in order to make them fight in a war for us...shut up and pick up the poop. And while I thought what we were doing was wrong, I wasn't nearly as bothered by it because at the time I viewed my WoL as a good fighter with a divine blessing that popped in whenever she was about to die. Keep in mind, that's the expansion where Zenos kicks our teeth in on a regular basis.

But thanks to EW, I am unfortunately aware that we're a super soldier built to save the universe on a pyre of billions of human sacrifices. So now what we do with that power impacts me a bit more. Since everyone here has memorized my post history, I'm sure you're aware I can't even fish now without thinking about what the writers decided it took to bring my character into existence. The only reasons for Venat to set the Ascians free to do the Rejoinings is if she's trying to make us specifically. That realization literally haunts me.

So yes, I really wish we were doing something less stupid and unethical with that power than what we seem to be doing. Like if we were going there for reasons other than to put a complete stranger into power, I would be relieved. Because I was afraid we'd go in the direction we seem to be going in. Even if we met with all these people and each decided who we were gonna help after that, it would be less stupid than what we're currently doing. We know nothing about her policies, how she's viewed by her people, she just showed up and so we're gonna put a crown on her head.

Also, if the "threat" of a 1/4 claimant to the throne being a warmonger is enough reason to install our own, where does it stop? What if Hein's kid isn't a good guy, is it our job to put him down? What if Aymeric is replaced with a warmonger? Is it our job to go install someone else who will work in our interests? Why are we only installing rulers we like? Why don't we just force democracy on every land we go to?

Is it really our right to go around the world and shape it into whatever form suits us best because we have the power to do so? Oh wait, that's what Venat did, nevermind, I already know the stance there.