Make Deployment Tactics DPS Neutral

[Eisi]

If you aim to make healing a totally brainless activity that even bots can do because there's exactly zero fail states, then sure.

I don't know about you, but I enjoy making choices that avoid failure and also actually using my brain when playing games.

Nice strawman. What is the difference between healing DPS-neutrally with an OGCD on a cooldown versus with a GCD on a cooldown? Keywords here are "on a cooldown".

By the way I literally gave you the examples. There is absolutely no reason for you to be this obtuse, unless you want to see Lily heals gone from the game because you don't understand how they work and think they are braindead?

[Eisi]

I’m not who you’re responding to but yes I don’t like the idea that lily heals are turning into “damage happens, press this button to heal it with no consequence”. I am not opposed to it, because at least some healer should be more approachable.

I think that some heals should be DPS losses so that you have something to optimize. I realize that all of the examples that you shared have some ways of optimizing damage, but it is also undeniable that the philosophy of making too many heals damage neutral does reduce the skill ceiling.

Would you be in favor of a damage penalty on the use of OGCD heals? So that they for example reduce the damage of your next Broil by 10%?

What I don't like about this focus on GCD-neutrality as some sort of boogeyman is that's not at all the point if you think that we have access to too many damage neutral healing cooldowns. If you want to get rid of them, fine, reduce the amount. But don't act like it has anything to do with whether they are GCD-based or not.

[Eisi]

SCH already has damage penalty on many of its oGCD heals (you lose energy drains). I love it even though it has become unpopular because no other healer loses DPS to heal.

It’s only in end walker that we started getting damage neutral healing GCDs. The optimization game until shadowbringers was to reduce GCD heals. I think that’s what people meant when they wanted to encourage more GCD healing (without mentioning the exceptions to the rule of GCD heals being DPS losses).

Isn't ED so popular that they had to bring it back because the demand was so high in the community? Not even Kaiten was that big of a deal.

In my opinion they should cut down on available OGCD heals and extend neutrality on GCD heals (again: with cooldowns, no unlimited free spam with no decision-making involved) so that there is a bit more variety among GCDs. The real challenge even now isn't to reduce GCD healing, it's to reduce DPS-negative healing.

Why yes, I would like lily heals gone from the game if it's damage neutral. I vastly preferred the ShB incarnation, you can plan around a damage refund, you don't have to plan around damage neutrality. It's not hard to see that total damage neutrality removes meaning to your choices because there is no consequence, unless you're the one being willingly obtuse perhaps?

Ok, we're done. I wasn't talking about total damage neutrality, I went out of my way to say that I want that neutrality to be on a cooldown - just like OGCDs. There's not any more I can do.

[rawker]

Isn't ED so popular that they had to bring it back because the demand was so high in the community? Not even Kaiten was that big of a deal.

In my opinion they should cut down on available OGCD heals and extend neutrality on GCD heals (again: with cooldowns, no unlimited free spam with no decision-making involved) so that there is a bit more variety among GCDs. The real challenge even now isn't to reduce GCD healing, it's to reduce DPS-negative healing.

Bringing back my other point with ED is that it is intended to be used to utilize any unused aetherflow stacks when Aetherflow goes off cooldown. If you do not need the healing, then you are given the choice to use it for damage and be rewarded, despite minimally.

And now look at how absurd is with SGE to spend gall stacks when you don't need to just because it is also tied to your MP sustain?

[Aravell]

Ok, we're done. I wasn't talking about total damage neutrality, I went out of my way to say that I want that neutrality to be on a cooldown - just like OGCDs. There's not any more I can do.

You mentioned the lily spells, and you mentioned it would help reduce the amount of filler spam we're doing. You are aware that WHM still spends 70-80% of their GCDs using their spam filler, yes? So how often do you want these damage neutral options to become available to cut into the filler spam? Certainly a lot more than every 20 seconds if you intend to cut the filler spam down to a more reasonable 50%? Does that not end up being so often that it reduces the thought required to plan everything out?

I cannot lay it out clearer than that. Take it or don't.

[Eisi]

You mentioned the lily spells, and you mentioned it would help reduce the amount of filler spam we're doing. You are aware that WHM still spends 70-80% of their GCDs using their spam filler, yes? So how often do you want these damage neutral options to become available to cut into the filler spam? Certainly a lot more than every 20 seconds if you intend to cut the filler spam down to a more reasonable 50%? Does that not end up being so often that it reduces the thought required to plan everything out?

I cannot lay it out clearer than that. Take it or don't.

Oh, so you've already moved that far have you? I am glad we agree and that you are actually in favor of Lily heals and therefore of neutral GCD options in general.

Moving a neutral healing cooldown from OGCD to GCD doesn't reduce total choice-making whatsoever. It does increase GCD variety.

[Aravell]

Nice strawman. What is the difference between healing DPS-neutrally with an OGCD on a cooldown versus with a GCD on a cooldown? Keywords here are "on a cooldown".

By the way I literally gave you the examples. There is absolutely no reason for you to be this obtuse, unless you want to see Lily heals gone from the game because you don't understand how they work and think they are braindead?

Why yes, I would like lily heals gone from the game if it's damage neutral. I vastly preferred the ShB incarnation, you can plan around a damage refund, you don't have to plan around damage neutrality. It's not hard to see that total damage neutrality removes meaning to your choices because there is no consequence, unless you're the one being willingly obtuse perhaps?

I think Aravell wants a trade: deal extra DPS or Heal... much like how PLD is with Clemency. The current situation with the rest of the healer is like how WAR is at the moment, dealing damage and at the same time, healing themselves in the process.

Yes, I want the healer role to choose. You either do damage or you heal, you shouldn't be handed things for free by being allowed to do both at the same time. I don't mind certain things to be damage neutral, but if the cost isn't damage, it should be something else, a long CD or MP perhaps? Lilies are too cheap for what they offer. 4 totally free casts per minute is way too much, and that's without mentioning WHM's other ways to heal without losing damage.

[AnotherPerson]

Why yes, I would like lily heals gone from the game if it's damage neutral. I vastly preferred the ShB incarnation, you can plan around a damage refund, you don't have to plan around damage neutrality. It's not hard to see that total damage neutrality removes meaning to your choices because there is no consequence, unless you're the one being willingly obtuse perhaps?

Yes, I want the healer role to choose. You either do damage or you heal, you shouldn't be handed things for free by being allowed to do both at the same time. I don't mind certain things to be damage neutral, but if the cost isn't damage, it should be something else, a long CD or MP perhaps? Lilies are too cheap for what they offer. 4 totally free casts per minute is way too much, and that's without mentioning WHM's other ways to heal without losing damage.

This problem is a bit more nuanced than dps refund or not. Frankly, healing skills being a DPS loss/partial refund actually results in less choices in the current design because there's really no decision to be had when the current meta of healing is lossless healing via healing abilities (oGCD healing). You choose the less expensive choice, which ultimately ends up being free healing without dps cost. The current problem with healing brings 2 states of failure for engagement:

1. You have too many healing skills and choices that most of them doesn't matter. However, with both oGCD heals and DPS neutral healing, at least you CAN choose which heal you want to optimize healing efficiency when things go bad. However, that becomes an illusion of choice if consistent damage is severely lacking.
2. When you have different cost in damage refund, it ultimately becomes "what is the least expensive cost skill to heal with?" And in the current state with all this oGCD healing, the choice is so linear that damage refund skills can become a static healing rotation -- which is the worst choice for a playstyle that wants to adapt to situations like a healer. Likewise, turning all skills into a DPS refund is basically a convoluted method to reducing the amount of damage on your nuke and turning your damage refund skills into the new "oGCD healing" priority buttons. I wouldn't call that really engaging since it's basically the healer way to look at 1-2-3 rotations. Though if it just becomes all partial refunds that does damage greater than your nuke in one GCD, we might just end up saving it all on a burst window, so it still becomes 2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 until then.

The reason why partial dps loss works on SCH so well is because Scholar addresses both of these issues and can get a DPS gain when they manage their aetherflow skills properly rather than always facing a partial DPS loss -- without compromising on adaptive play. Scholar faces skill lockout throughout its toolkit (soft locks like Aetherpact, Hard locks like Dissipation and Seraph), and this is what makes the current state of Scholar where everything becomes a 'tactical' balancing act work. On top of trying to manage a DPS gain, they also have to consider changing their strategies if people suddenly start taking avoidable damage while facing skill lockout. There becomes choice with the change in combat rather than a static rotation which always grants a partial DPS gain/loss via aetherflow.

Though, considering how some people dislike skill lockout (dissipation), that's not a playstyle I think everyone will enjoy and doesn't need to be replicated on other healers.

But because damage is generally low and scripted, a lot of SCH end up facing the illusion of choice anyway in simple content because they never need to adapt when everyone knows what to do.