Pictomancer's effects need some more work

[Sequora]

Nah, Sage trailer didn't lie, Sage is boring as hell.

Literally said nothing about sage being boring. We’re talking about the job aesthetic. Visually sage was pretty unimpressive outside their weapon in their announcement trailer.

[ty_taurus]

I think another thing people need to realize is many of the initial job trailers don’t really show the flashiest skills.

The sage trailer in particular was really boring from what we actually got. We saw their basic heal, and a few other skills.

This is true, and I'll throw in my own perspective here about PIC as a whole:

I like the concept, I like that it's a more whimsical job which is very on brand for Relm, and I'm curious to learn more about the unique aspects to how the whole "landscapes" thing will come into play. They dropped the word "Landscape" multiple times as well as showcased one action of painting a shooting star over a mountain, but there was no revealed effect. I wonder if that will play into the job's gauge, and I think there's a lot of potential.

On the flipside, I think I agree with some of the criticism that the actual spell effects themselves are underwhelming when comparing them to Krile's display from the trailer. Obviously the in-game visual effects are very different from the full CGI trailer effects, but Krile looked like she was painting with Aether. The paint from the teaser is very literal--as if they are painting with actual paints. The idea of conjuring strands of aetheric paint that transform into a wave of butterflies is very elaborate, interesting, and compliments this idea of whimsy. It further tells the story of PIC being this mage who's magic is built on their imagination and creativity, but the Stone and Blizzard effects we see in the teaser feel very disconnected from that identity. There's nothing particularly imaginative about them. They're very basic, and while they're no doubt very basic aspects to PIC's kit (like their general filler spells) I can't help but feel they could've done more to communicate this identity of creativity even with basic attacks. Additionally, the moogle that gets conjured just looks like an ordinary moogle, but the spriggan that Krile painted was made with her aetheric paint. Shouldn't the moogle also be made out of that sort of watercolor-y texture? Shouldn't it be dripping paint as a being born of magic paint?

It's entirely possible that these effects are a work in progress, but that's never been the case before, to my knowledge. So I can't help but feel like the execution of this idea is not nearly as strong as it could've been.

[Ryvick]

I was sort of in the same camp as the OP at first glance of the class, not too impressed with the color scheme/pondering possible placeholder graphics, HOWEVER after a few more watches of both the Picto in game vid and the Full trailer vid I have an oddly sneaking suspicion that possibly, just possibly, the particular paint style used is due to an interesting effect that MIGHT occur in the dark/at night.

Since we only have full day in game footage to observe and Krile's display is at night, I am wondering if the paint in fact does glow brightly in the dark similar to Krile's nighttime display. I posit that as a theory due to the end of Krile's display in the Full trailer when Night becomes Day and it appears the paint stops glowing. The coding might need to be a paler paint to pull off a change to a bright glow at night. If you observe the paint in the in game play footage the paint is singular colored with a lighter/white contrasting paint. They may not be using Deeper/Darker hues due to the change from matte to glow during a change of Day to Night or Lit to Darkness.

Just a random thought.

[SchwarzwaelderTorte]

Red Mage debuted in game in patch 3.4 (Sept 2016) but wasn't officially announced as a new job until December that year.

A lot of advance planning goes into creating a new job. When it gets officially announced really doesn't matter. They're already committed to it. They'll listen to player feedback for small changes they can make but it's too late at this point to give it a complete overhaul and have it ready in time for expansion launch.

You're talking about the solo duty against the Warriors of Darkness where Alisaie creates a blade of light, right? If so there was absolutely no mention of Red Mage, and it looked completely different, both in terms of VFX, animation, and aesthetic. Even the auto-attack animations are just the PLD ones. Obviously it's understandable how people immediately assumed sword + magic = Red Mage confirmed, but since your argument is about production itself, Red Mage as we know it was only properly debuted on Stormblood's release, when you get access to the job and Alisaie gets an actual Red Mage weapon in MSQ, if my memory serves right.

So that was... 6 months after it was officially announced? Plenty of time to gather feedback if it needed it. But Red Mage was a lot less ambitious and daring with its visuals than Pictomancer, which is doing something completely new visually, so I doubt the players' reaction was as divisive at the time.

I'm honestly still scratching my head over this. Obviously, the department who worked on the CGI trailer are not the same people who worked on the VFX themselves. Obviously, the CGI trailers are never accurately depicting jobs (or characters, or even when the lines in the trailer are said in MSQ... unless Emet-Selch is secretly a Gremlin).

But surely, surely someone in production must have looked at both and thought "These do not look the same at all. Players will have things to say about this." (especially when it takes so much screen time in the full trailer). That's why I'm a bit startled that they're rushing the Pictomancer debut, when I don't think it would have been an issue to wait until 7.0 for Krile to get her paintbrush.

Then again, we don't know what the schedules of each department look like, so it could very well be that it was simply just not possible to delay the debut, either because 6.55 MSQ was already set in stone, or because the full trailer was only shown to the production team very, very late.

[Cidel]

It's both interesting and sad that you made such an effort in trying to analyze both me and the supposed implications of that post (missing the intention of the obviously different tone in the process), yet somehow didn't bother to address directly the comparisons and actually explain what exactly is the base for your opinion, instead of some vague "the intros look similar" or "their choice of model and behavior are similar" or "both use blonde cutesy girls" or "they have the same vibe", and the likes. I wasn't kidding when I said two posts ago that I was honestly wondering what made you specifically think that way, or three posts ago about how you would have made the job trailer to look different enough in that sense for you. I'm still wondering right now what legit makes you think about the Pictomancer looking more similarly shown to the way the Artist also was in its trailer than to what it has always looked like in the Final Fantasy games (I reduce this to FF games because, for example, there aren't chocobos or moogles in BD, as it's a different IP that doesn't repeat the usual FF tropes, other than taking inspiration from some) that it has appeared in. You might jump on the gun again at me for saying this, but my honest opinion is that you're just grasping at straws there to find something that isn't even there. But I'm really wondering if somehow I can't notice some important details in the trailers that you actually noticed. Because I understand what you say about both trailer intros showing females walking around, acting cute, and using their paintbrushes. But these similarities are on such a basic level, that I can't see any actual connection between both. Especially since, and this is why I insisted on the historical record, the Pictomancer has always had that vibe about it and the model has a reason to look and act like that, so I believe that that was the most logical and straightforward way to make the intro.

Anyway, if you were right about what you assumed, I would instead had gone back point by point and I would even quote everything that you've ignored, disregarded or rewritten to your convenience to have a "gotcha" moment against you, like you thought that I wanted to do. However, it's not worth the effort to repeat something that I already said (and showed) several times for naught, or play your game of "I'm better than you" for real and not in a sarcastic way to show you the difference between my original posts and what you interpreted. I think that the rest of the posters don't deserve that, and I can see that it was a mistake to write the previous post in the tone that I wrote it in, since it seems to not have served the intended purpose. My honest apologies to everyone.

But you're right about one thing, thought: I didn't bother coming to the English forums in a very long time because there are way too many people like you (not a majority, but an annoying minority nonetheless), and that's something that almost everyone agrees on, even the devs and CM, apparently, since both stopped interacting here. I'm not saying that you're actually one of those, but you have been giving me such impression. You really assumed stuff that I think that I never hinted at originally, and kept avoiding answering directly despite doing my best to explain myself and properly back what I was saying. Misunderstandings happen, but you took it a step beyond way before my last post.

Have a good one. Unless you suddenly decide to answer what I asked you about in a concise and detailed way, since I won't assume that you won't ever do it. Otherwise, you win, if that makes you happy. And no, there's no sarcasm in this post.

It's unfortunate, because a lot of that just perfectly described you as soon as you came onto the scene and posts beyond; but I'm not entirely sure if it's just lack of self-awareness to see how hard you project your rampant passive aggressiveness while calling-out others on how you get to interpret theirs. It's also unfortunate that nothing described is apparently sufficient enough for you, so you'll simply hand-wave it as "vague," simply because you disagree with it. But then again, your whole obsession has been to make peevish arguments picking apart unrelated data points nobody was debating and to turn an innocuous statement into something that has to be outlined and explained in great detail to your specific satisfaction. And any genuine questions you may have had were instantly buried under all the backhanded snark and I wasn't avoiding answering your questions as most sounded more rhetorical than anything else. I've already mentioned why and how I found the similarities (there's a couple more you glossed over, but given your proclivity to needing specific detail, probably wouldn't be up to your standards anyway), so what's the point in repeating myself?

My key take away from this whole interaction with you is that you took obvious offense to any implication of plagiarism on behalf of the company for some reason, no matter how flippant, when similarities were pointed out and you obviously take things a whole lot seriously than you pretend not to. The fact that you want to go "point by point" over something you clearly read more into than anybody else here based on how you interpreted my opinions is just a new level of pettiness that only solidifies my observation. You absolutely were actively seeking "gotcha" moments; these past two pages are a clear indication of that with all the fluff and lore you're been running in circles over. Your free to deny it; maybe you genuinely weren't, but you certainly came off as gunning for them. The fact that you think the "I'm better than you" game was my game certainly carries some tone-deafness; who engaged who first?

Saying both there "are way too many people like you" and "I'm not saying that you're actually one of those" are contradictory points, so I'm not sure why even bother mentioning it. Personally, I think less people would be willing to engage with individuals like you, that take comments not even directed at you too far and nearly demand that people explain their opinions to a satisfactory degree for you; and I'm glad I only run into individuals like yourself around here only once or twice during my 10+ years posting here. Misunderstanding certainly do happen, but clearly you decided to try to get a few jabs in your next reply when simply told to carefully reread what I had posted and your freedom to take what you quoted seriously. Don't act as if you were innocent during the early stages either and this is all on me.

Cheers then. I don't owe you any additional answers up to whatever standards you deign aren't beneath you. Coincidentally you're also right about one thing: there really wasn't any real sarcasm in your post; just the overbearing condescension that was always there from the start. So, par the course. "You do you."

au revoir.

[Sequora]

My guess is our LB3 will be the Krile spell, and that it’ll sort of look like Sea Shanty. It’s such a pretty animation I could see them recreating that with paint.

It might also show up as a higher level spell.

[Yshnal]

It's unfortunate,because a lot of that just perfectly described you as soon as you came onto the scene and posts beyond; but I'm not entirely sure if it's just lack of self-awareness to see how hard you project your rampant passive aggressiveness while calling-out others on how you get to interpret theirs. It's also unfortunate that nothing described is apparently sufficient enough for you, so you'll simply hand-wave it as "vague," simply because you disagree with it. But then again, your whole obsession has been to make peevish arguments picking apart unrelated data points nobody was debating and to turn an innocuous statement into something that has to be outlined and explained in great detail to your specific satisfaction. And any genuine questions you may have had were instantly buried under all the backhanded snark and I wasn't avoiding answering your questions as most sounded more rhetorical than anything else. I've already mentioned why and how I found the similarities (there's a couple more you glossed over, but given your proclivity to needing specific detail, probably wouldn't be up to your standards anyway), so what's the point in repeating myself?

My key take away from this whole interaction with you is that you took obvious offense to any implication of plagiarism on behalf of the company for some reason, no matter how flippant, when similarities were pointed out and you obviously take things a whole lot seriously than you pretend not to. The fact that you want to go "point by point" over something you clearly read more into than anybody else here based on how you interpreted my opinions is just a new level of pettiness that only solidifies my observation. You absolutely were actively seeking "gotcha" moments; these past two pages are a clear indication of that with all the fluff and lore you're been running in circles over. Your free to deny it; maybe you genuinely weren't, but you certainly came off as gunning for them. The fact that you think the "I'm better than you" game was my game certainly carries some tone-deafness; who engaged who first?

Saying both there "are way too many people like you" and "I'm not saying that you're actually one of those" are contradictory points, so I'm not sure why even bother mentioning it. Personally, I think less people would be willing to engage with individuals like you, that take comments not even directed at you too far and nearly demand that people explain their opinions to a satisfactory degree for you; and I'm glad I only run into individuals like yourself around here only once or twice during my 10+ years posting here. Misunderstanding certainly do happen, but clearly you decided to try to get a few jabs in your next reply when simply told to carefully reread what I had posted and your freedom to take what you quoted seriously. Don't act as if you were innocent during the early stages either and this is all on me.

Cheers then. I don't owe you any additional answers up to whatever standards you deign aren't beneath you. Coincidentally you're also right about one thing: there really wasn't any real sarcasm in your post; just the overbearing condescension that was always there from the start. So, par the course. "You do you."

au revoir.

You're right, you don't even owe me (or anyone) an answer over anything. But you're confusing my insistence in trying to make you just clearly talk about the topic and stop judging or voicing my supposed thoughts in my stead, with me thinking that you owe me anything or that you should actually do it for some obscure reason. Well, to be fair I actually think that you owe something to anyone, and that's the benefit of the doubt and some respect. Because you don't know if you get the wrong impression because someone's first language isn't English or some similar things. I even apologised for using the wrong method to try and make you stop in that specific post, and I apologise again without "ifs" or "buts".

Anyway, no, I'm not defending SE. I (and many others as well) got in plenty of trouble in the past for criticizing them in these very same discussion boards for actual serious stuff like the changes that the cash shop brought to other areas of the game. This was never about defending the Pictomancer, as you said that you thought since the start, but about me not seeing what you were talking about in regards to any kind of similarities or implications.

Take care.

[Khryseis_Astra]

But surely, surely someone in production must have looked at both and thought "These do not look the same at all. Players will have things to say about this." (especially when it takes so much screen time in the full trailer). That's why I'm a bit startled that they're rushing the Pictomancer debut, when I don't think it would have been an issue to wait until 7.0 for Krile to get her paintbrush.

Then again, we don't know what the schedules of each department look like, so it could very well be that it was simply just not possible to delay the debut, either because 6.55 MSQ was already set in stone, or because the full trailer was only shown to the production team very, very late.

The more I think about it, the more I think that the screenshot of Krile with her new brush is going to be one of those closing cutscenes at the end of the patch. I think we’ll see very little, if any, of her actually using the job until DT. Unless they really do rush her into her Trust role for the last dungeon, but I don’t think they will.

My wish is that when the job is done and I pick it up in DT, the paint looks more magical: full of glow, light and sparkly particle effects, and not so flat and chalky. I’m painting with aether not gouache! lol

Also, side note, I wonder what the chances are of getting an actual guild house, aka artists studio, for this job. There’s a lot of those little round buildings sitting empty in Gridania! That would be my second wish: an actual guild hall with new artsy furnishings added to the game.

Third wish: Star Prism LB3, big, bright and sparkly! LOL

[SchwarzwaelderTorte]

Digging the thread back from the dirt because we’ve had some new Pictomancer footage with 6.55 and I think the VFX are worth talking about (and I’m stuck in lancetfish jail so I have time to kill anyway).

I edited everything in gifs which will be in spoiler tags to not be too hard on the eyes (it doesn't seem to work in the preview so I hope it works when I post this lol).

Effect 1

Personally I find it very… bold to start the introduction of Pictomancer with this. It’s a slow motion effect we probably won’t often see when we play the job ourselves (except maybe under the sleep status and in gpose), but the static 3D model of paint doesn’t really look very appealing at first glance (and especially this close), it almost looks more like rubbery glue is attached to the brush. Not a very solid first impression overall (yes, it’s only a few seconds, but they do matter!)

Effect 2

(gif is at 50% speed for eye comfort, normal speed here)

Here we can see how the previous 3D model of paint is supposed to be used, and in complete contrast to the slow-motion animation from before, it works really well! It looks like a convincing brush stroke. Nothing else to say, great effect.

Effect 3

The moogle we saw in the gameplay trailer appears. The splash of paint is very satisfying, although the moogle doesn’t really look like it’s made out of paint, and the 2 red orbs and stars look like they come from another art direction that’s neither like the paint effects or the moogle, so things are stylistically clashing a bit already. Which is strange because, when you look at cartoon-ish emotes we have in the game already there is already a predominant art style (Eureka, All saints’ charm, or even the new Valentione one we’re getting soon), and with Vexed there is even a more hand-drawn-looking one (it’s quite literally a scribble). Instead the red orbs look like they come from some... random cel shaded game?

Having the moogle dripping with paint (like the spriggan in the CGI trailer, or the painter AION gif I posted earlier in this thread) would maybe make things feel more cohesive already?

Effect 4

It’s a bit hard to see what’s going on in the moogle laser at that angle, but I think overall it fits effects we’ve seen before in FFXIV. I’m mainly thinking of BLU’s Apokalypsis, and I’ve seen a lot of people comparing the gameplay trailer’s VFX with the Byakko trial and weapons (saying Byakko did it better), and ironically this laser looks a lot less like ink/paint than what we see in the Byakko trial, but I think that stylistically Byakko is a lot more dynamic and… stylized like a “shonen anime fight” for lack of a better word, which wouldn’t really fit the image of Pictomancer to begin with. The sparkles at the end are cute and a nice contrast to the more “violent” looking laser.

Effect 5

This effect looks great! Everything looks like paint, it’s stylized but it’s not clashing with the rest of the art style, the 3D model of paint on the brush is behaving as it should (which is strange, it’s not going that much faster than the first slow-mo one), and the brush stroke appearing this way feels very satisfying.

Effect 6

(gif is at 50% speed for eye comfort, normal speed here)

Also a great effect, very juicy and satisfying explosion, everything still looks like paint, aaand…

Effect 7

(gif is at 50% speed for eye comfort, normal speed here)

… what is this. Up until now everything except the spriggan looked like realistic(ish) paint, and it ends on a overly cartoon-ish splat, which completely clashes with the rest of the effect? I don’t really understand why it had to be this way. If the idea was to have a lighter background so we could still see the spriggan scribble, couldn’t a more realistic splatter have worked just as well?

Effect 8

But overall I really like this spriggan! Sure, it’s not the one made out of paint in the CGI trailer (which, in itself, is pretty funny I think, but I could see people using it as an argument for their disappointment with the gameplay VFX, so I’m not sure why the devs went with it, it’s like giving us the gun to shoot them with), but it fits the image of Pictomancer as a little drawing you make that comes to life. That spriggan alone is to me much more reflective of the job than what we saw in the gameplay trailer (the rocks, the ice, even the moogle). The flying particles around it are also a lot more in line with the VFX we have in the game so far (which, again, why does the moogle laser and its strange orbs not follow that direction?).

Effect 9

And we see the paint explosion again with added flying particles, which also works great and doesn’t clash with the overall art style, 10/10.

So yeah, overall a pretty mixed bag, some effects work great, others not so much... I hope there's still time for the people in charge of VFX to gather feedback and add another pass on them, mainly to maintain visual coherence between the overall art style of the game, what already exists in terms of VFX, and how the Pictomancer ones could fit in the middle.

[Mecia]

Even worse in slow motion. Those stereotypical splats dont fit at all and that detailed paint trail looks awful.

We already have good paint stroke effects in Byakko weapons, just take those and add some color.