Feels like people are more toxic in high-end duty Party Finder than before

[HikariKurosawa]

Cheating has become really widespread so people are probably fixating a lot on combat meters. It has a huge negative impact on the environment. I think this community underestimates how many WoW players came over when blizzard got bad rep and how many of them brought over their addon based mindset. It used to be something fringe that was looked down upon or done very secretly, now it is people who couldn't care less because they can always just say "Well I got banned guess I have to play WoW mainly again" or are already playing WoW as their main game and couldn't care less.

Square enix needs to put a stop to it because it definitely ruins the experience of end game content in this game. The game has never been designed around it, and it's against the spirit of community square enix wants to create. It was fine in the past, it's not anymore.

[Jeeqbit]

Cheating has become really widespread so people are probably fixating a lot on combat meters.

That has always been the case. It was even like that in Heavensward and Stormblood. That is definitely not new in the raiding community.

I think this community underestimates how many WoW players came over when blizzard got bad rep and how many of them brought over their addon based mindset.

Alright, so, there has always been a massive crossover in the playerbase where people who play this game also play, or used to play, WoW. This was the case before Shadowbringers, because it felt like a high percentage of people had at least played WoW in the past or still raidlogged it based on discussions.

Around the time of its BFA expansion, it seemed a lot of the lesser-committed players left WoW (such as 6-year vets). It wasn't until the scandal that the super-committed players (15-year vets) left who were stuck there due to the sunk cost fallacy.

I think the super-committed 15-year vets would also be the ones most likely of all to have got into using them in WoW and therefore more likely to bring this mindset over.

I agree that it is those people who are far more open to and interested in them, but what we are talking about are things that don't necessarily affect just raiding.

Where raiding is concerned, calculating damage has always been extremely common.

[HikariKurosawa]

That has always been the case. It was even like that in Heavensward and Stormblood. That is definitely not new in the raiding community.

Alright, so, there has always been a massive crossover in the playerbase where people who play this game also play, or used to play, WoW. This was the case before Shadowbringers, because it felt like a high percentage of people had at least played WoW in the past or still raidlogged it based on discussions.

Around the time of its BFA expansion, it seemed a lot of the lesser-committed players left WoW (such as 6-year vets). It wasn't until the scandal that the super-committed players (15-year vets) left who were stuck there due to the sunk cost fallacy.

I think the super-committed 15-year vets would also be the ones most likely of all to have got into using them in WoW and therefore more likely to bring this mindset over.

I agree that it is those people who are far more open to and interested in them, but what we are talking about are things that don't necessarily affect just raiding.

Where raiding is concerned, calculating damage has always been extremely common.

There's a big difference between open and brazen use of addons and people respectfully using them for their own purposes. The community definitely cares way less about using addons in private currently. It has definitely become a massive problem in the game.

[Bonoki]

A majority of the good players have all quit 'til Dawntrail

Not only have they more or less quit or turned into afk campers, but most of the actual good players have established circles which means they don't even need to interact with the common folk to begin with unless they are doing it some undisclosed reason.

[Jeeqbit]

There's a big difference between open and brazen use of addons and people respectfully using them for their own purposes. The community definitely cares way less about using addons in private currently.

It is true that more casual players, RPers, venue-goers are using them, whereas before it was mostly just in the raiding community.

...but your whole point was that it was the raiding community that was being affected. They have always been widely used there. I remember seeing frustrations like this aired by raiders way back in Stormblood.

It has definitely become a massive problem in the game.

I don't find it a problem, personally. I just do raids without any of these things and it isn't a problem at all. As long as they do mechanics and aren't being rude, I don't really care how they choose to play.

[Bonoki]

The raiding community absolutely does use them, they are just extremely hush hush about it and agree among themselves that they will play together that way. Loyalty among comradery. I can't tell you the number of times I've encountered people who say "I don't use add--ons~" but actually are using them. It's because they don't want to paint themselves a target, and that's also just the number one rule of mods, never admit you use them.

[HikariKurosawa]

It is true that more casual players, RPers, venue-goers are using them, whereas before it was mostly just in the raiding community.

...but your whole point was that it was the raiding community that was being affected. They have always been widely used there. I remember seeing frustrations like this aired by raiders way back in Stormblood.

I don't find it a problem, personally. I just do raids without any of these things and it isn't a problem at all. As long as they do mechanics and aren't being rude, I don't really care how they choose to play.

To clarify, I never said anything about the raiding community. I said the end game environment, I said the community, but I couldn't care less about the raiding community. It's the overall feel of the game for anyone who wants to engage in end game content. I don't even think the raiding community is a real thing, and if it is, I would never want to be considered part of it. I just liked playing the game.

There are tons of people brazenly using addons and stating them as a requirement in party finder descriptions now. It shouldn't be that way and wouldn't be if addon usage wasn't extremely normalized.

I do find it a problem because the gameplay isn't balanced or designed around using these tools, yet the bar of expectations from the community is being raised because use of these addons has become extremely normalized and common.

[Troxbark]

To clarify, I never said anything about the raiding community. I said the end game environment, I said the community, but I couldn't care less about the raiding community. It's the overall feel of the game for anyone who wants to engage in end game content. I don't even think the raiding community is a real thing, and if it is, I would never want to be considered part of it. I just liked playing the game.

There are tons of people brazenly using addons and stating them as a requirement in party finder descriptions now. It shouldn't be that way and wouldn't be if addon usage wasn't extremely normalized.

I do find it a problem because the gameplay isn't balanced or designed around using these tools, yet the bar of expectations from the community is being raised because use of these addons has become extremely normalized and common.

Just because you don't care doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The raiding community is the only reason this game has some sort of life in it 2 weeks after patches. While it's been longer than a couple weeks, you can still confirm this by looking at PF right now and see with-out the high-end tab, it's basically dead. Other than that is just the casual players afking or spamming night club events and that's a pretty bad thing to base the game on.

On the topic of addons. The casual players use these in mass and to say otherwise is just denial and the want to remove addons from the game is wanting the game to be worse than it currently is. You'd have an argument if the devs actually implemented the QOL changes that these mods bring in a timely manner or greenlisted certain addons and while they have implemented some, I specifically brought up a "timely manner" because players shouldn't have to wait YEARS for them to implement something the modding community can pump out overnight.

[HikariKurosawa]

Just because you don't care doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The raiding community is the only reason this game has some sort of life in it 2 weeks after patches. While it's been longer than a couple weeks, you can still confirm this by looking at PF right now and see with-out the high-end tab, it's basically dead. Other than that is just the casual players afking or spamming night club events and that's a pretty bad thing to base the game on.

On the topic of addons. The casual players use these in mass and to say otherwise is just denial and the want to remove addons from the game is wanting the game to be worse than it currently is. You'd have an argument if the devs actually implemented the QOL changes that these mods bring in a timely manner or greenlisted certain addons and while they have implemented some, I specifically brought up a "timely manner" because players shouldn't have to wait YEARS for them to implement something the modding community can pump out overnight.

You're confused about what I said, or pushing some weird pro-addon agenda. Let me be clear though: WoW was developed from the beginning around addons, FFXIV was developed around not having addons. It's not a valid perspective to think addons are acceptable in this game.

I never "said otherwise", most people are addon abusers in this game that should be banned for breaking ToS. It's not an argument, you are in the wrong if you have any addons installed.

[sindriiisgaming]

You're confused about what I said, or pushing some weird pro-addon agenda. Let me be clear though: WoW was developed from the beginning around addons, FFXIV was developed around not having addons. It's not a valid perspective to think addons are acceptable in this game.

I never "said otherwise", most people are addon abusers in this game that should be banned for breaking ToS. It's not an argument, you are in the wrong if you have any addons installed.

so ive been lurking for a little while and im going to be honest, you seam completly out of touch with the community. i havent seen a single person agree with anything youve said, ive watched you shame and call for the bans of everybody who even installed a mod ever. unaware this game would be comitting buisness suicide and loose 90% of its players. im not even sure why aswell you comment on topics and dmiss them because YOU dont care about them. i feel honestly like youre emposing your opinnion on others while dismissing there own. im on console. and i dont want to be represented like this tbh. i think aswell.. that those who are just trying to br ciritical of the game are only helping it, but youve endoctrinated yourself into this "must agree with everything CBU3 does" cult so much you say things without ciritical thinking. if mods were so horrible, why is square adding them to the game one by one... cant you see the hypocrasy... ive seen in the last year players having to use ACT as a legitimate means of defneding themselves from 1 - 1 - 1 combo trolls who just play lethargically in the dungeon.