Dawntrail - What abilities do you think need to be trimmed from the game?

[EusisLandale]

As someone who plays SGE, I rarely use Physis I/II and Kerachole together as Aoe's rarely hit hard enough to warrant a HOT and the ticks from it would just be O.healing at least in normal content.

Yeah, stacking Physis and Kerachole is just weird after 78 since the latter gets a regen at that point. Better to just spread them out over time. Combining them like Mimilu is suggesting would just make the healing kit weaker.

[StarRosie]

Unchained/Inner Release + Steel Cyclone self-healing honestly did for dungeons about all that Bloodbath did, and roughly the same (just more burstily) for raids if we actually somehow needed that extra healing.

Valid, though I still didn't like that it got ripped away with no replacement. Though that's more a personal thing I guess.

At the time, you also didn't lose any personal healing for doing so. It's just that not casting it on an ally, even after that change, wasted half the healing. But it was certainly unnecessarily clunky.

I never really felt this? Or maybe I do not remember it. I think I was just overall happy the clunky restriction was gone and didn't pay it much mind. So I'm curious what ya mean here.

But, yeah. This.

Yeah...yeeeeaaahhhhh....two of my best pals have been DRK mains since HW. And I've listened to a lot of rants from them about DRK this expac...

[Absurdity]

Unchained/Inner Release + Steel Cyclone self-healing honestly did for dungeons about all that Bloodbath did, and roughly the same (just more burstily) for raids if we actually somehow needed that extra healing.

You also had Inner Release + Inner Beast spam which I'd argue was stronger than Bloodbath ever was in raids.
I have brute forced my raid pugs into seeing new boss phases with it or managed to keep myself alive while someone was trying to scrape the healers off the floor.

Valid, though I still didn't like that it got ripped away with no replacement. Though that's more a personal thing I guess.

That's simply the case for over half of warrior's kit in general, ripped out to be replaced with either "hurr durr big damage"-button or absolutely nothing.

I never really felt this? Or maybe I do not remember it. I think I was just overall happy the clunky restriction was gone and didn't pay it much mind. So I'm curious what ya mean here.

Nascent Flash in ShB did basically just the same thing it does now, the healing could just be either stronger or a lot weaker than the current version depending on how good your dps output was.
It wasn't really clunky, because the current NF isn't, and more so unnecessarily restrictive considering CBU3 removed the healing tools you had in Stormblood.

[Shurrikhan]

Valid, though I still didn't like that it got ripped away with no replacement.

That... was the replacement, though: Inner Release allowing you at least two extra Inner Beasts, and Steel Cyclone granting huge amounts of healing in itself in AoE.

I never really felt this? Or maybe I do not remember it. I think I was just overall happy the clunky restriction was gone and didn't pay it much mind. So I'm curious what ya mean here.

I meant just what I said. Using Nascent Flash on self just wasted Nascent Glint (half the total healing). You only got (and still only get) the same self-healing as when using it on an ally, without the 100% duplicated portion that would otherwise have gone to your ally.

You also had Inner Release + Inner Beast spam which I'd argue was stronger than Bloodbath ever was in raids.
I have brute forced my raid pugs into seeing new boss phases with it or managed to keep myself alive while someone was trying to scrape the healers off the floor.

Exactly. Same.

[StarRosie]

That... was the replacement, though: Inner Release allowing you at least two extra Inner Beasts, and Steel Cyclone granting huge amounts of healing in itself in AoE.

I...don't really see that as a replacement. That might be overall just a personal point of disagreement though. As that feels more a side effect of Inner Release's design, rather then direct intention. But again, that is just my look on it. I guess an agree to disagree part there?

I meant just what I said. Using Nascent Flash on self just wasted Nascent Glint (half the total healing). You only got (and still only get) the same self-healing as when using it on an ally, without the 100% duplicated portion that would otherwise have gone to your ally.

Ah, ok. I was thinking stupidly and didn't fully catch what you meant when reading that earlier. I was trying to think on how it effected the healing to me and came up blank. But, ok. Now my braincell has caught up.

[hynaku]

Remove half the healing spells from healers.

[Jeeqbit]

the actual issue doesn't stem from tank problems it's actually just because healer design isn't really great.

To be fair, it always felt in Heavensward like you were relying on the healer, especially in extreme and higher content. If the healer wasn't good or they died, the tank wasn't going to live for long. Whereas now they can simply brute force their way through half of an extreme trial completely solo while the rest of the party watches to get an advanced preview of all the mechanics. Regardless of healer design at the time, at least they weren't completely unnecessary.

Peloton

It's useful between mob packs in dungeons. I often commend the DPS who use it when Sprint is on cooldown.

Leg Sweep

Some mob packs do aoe circles that can be stunned so the DPS don't have to retreat.

War mains want to do everything and be the best at everything. So now War is just a better Drk in every regard. It's what yall have asked for.

It's actually that WAR and DRK have an identity clash. WAR was always about absorbing damage from its attacks with abilities such as Storm's Path and Bloodbath. DRK from other games was also about taking health from others. This presented a clash but they went with it anyway, allowing you to spam Abyssal Drain and use the Souleater combo.

The MP cost of healing from Abyssal Drain was such that it wasn't meant to be spammed but if you were good at DRK you could keep the MP regenerating enough to spam it a lot. Then it got really spammed in Stormblood, so they nerfed that. They came up with a different way of doing it by absorbing the damage dealt into a shield, effectively achieving a similar result but making DRK a bit different.

It is difficult here because their identities clash quite a lot. But since they are now making jobs clones of eachother on a functional level, it's probably a waste bringing this point up anymore. Abyssal Drain will probably just increase in potency to be like Equilibrium eventually.

The issue isn't that WAR became a better DRK, it's that DRK became a worse DRK. The loss of stuff like Dark Arts, is one example of this.

Dark Arts was meme'd out of existence tbh. I think Edge/Flood of Shadow is a good replacement in terms of animation and how it feels to use, but there is a bit too little interaction between actions now. The concept of fully absorbing damage into TBN to get an Edge/Flood attack is about the only interaction remaining. I felt that DRK was much more sophisticated than it needed to be in Heavensward, but they went a little over the top in how simple it was made in Shadowbringers.

DRK has been leaning on its "Top DPS Tank" label as an identity for a while now.

I liked to say it was the "shield" tank but when they put a shield that is 50% as good on Bloodwhetting in addition to its crazy healing potency and increased the raw mitigation on it to 20%, it really took away from that. In Shadowbringers, it actually felt like TBN was the best thing on tanks but now all the others have kinda surpassed it.

-Combine Whispering Dawn/Angel's Whisper and Fey Blessing

I use those separately a lot. Especially useful if there are a lot of raid-wides.

-Honestly, I think they need to decide if they want SCH's main resource is either Aetherflow or the Faerie Gauge and remove the one they don't pick

Why? The Faerie Gauge is specifically for the regen while Aetherflow is for everything else. If everything else took from the regen meter, then the regen might end up not very effective when a lot of healing is required, such as during a big dungeon pull.

[Shurrikhan]

It's useful between mob packs in dungeons. I often commend the DPS who use it when Sprint is on cooldown.

Something being useful to press does not necessarily mean that it's useful/beneficial to the game, let alone as an additional button, though.

Do we really need a button specifically for out-of-combat permanent half-sprint?

[ZiraZ]

Peleton is pretty important in deep dungeons, which is an end-game activity when done solo and time becomes tight, also daily reminder removing something will never mean the devs add something back in return,they are actually really good at removing and not adding anything

[StarRosie]

Dark Arts was meme'd out of existence tbh. I think Edge/Flood of Shadow is a good replacement in terms of animation and how it feels to use, but there is a bit too little interaction between actions now. The concept of fully absorbing damage into TBN to get an Edge/Flood attack is about the only interaction remaining. I felt that DRK was much more sophisticated than it needed to be in Heavensward, but they went a little over the top in how simple it was made in Shadowbringers.

That's overall what I mean by DRK became a worse DRK. The complexity and interactions between its kit were dumbed down in its own expansion, which is just...poetic irony. But I feel there is room to rebuild DRK in a way that lets it be complex again for those who want a tank with some form of complexity. One idea I had was having it basically be like BLM. You have your default state which is mostly what we have now, use dark arts to toggle into a different state where instead of abilities having MP costs, you just have your MP slowly draining while in that state. But your attacks get augmented to just hit like trucks and become things like Scourge, Delirium, and Power Slash as your GCD combo, Brimstone replacing Unmend, Tar Pit replacing Flood of Shadow. Then you swap back to default and use things like Blood Weapon and maybe a couple new things to regen the MP and then go back to Dark Arts state. TBN's shield breaking could allow you a free cast of a Dark Arts mode attack while in default, or if broken while in DA state, make the next ability used be a guaranteed crit or something. Is it a perfect idea? Likely not. But I feel like it having to balance and actively manage its MP, swapping between two states for high damage and recovery like BLM, would add something unique for DRK.

I liked to say it was the "shield" tank but when they put a shield that is 50% as good on Bloodwhetting in addition to its crazy healing potency and increased the raw mitigation on it to 20%, it really took away from that. In Shadowbringers, it actually felt like TBN was the best thing on tanks but now all the others have kinda surpassed it.

I would agree with the shield tank title, if the game did anything outside of savage that asked for all the extra mit DRK has. And, like you said, the other tanks didn't have stuff that makes TBN seem...weak. Whenever I do play DRK to shake things up, I never feel Oblation is ever needed. But I still just stack it, even if it feels like a waste...Dark Mind rarely feels like it comes up or is needed. DRK could have an identity as the mit stacking tank, if anything in the game really warranted that much mitigation outside of savage.