And the slow death of the RPG based battlesystem

[Valence]

Multiple big chunks of the game battle system have been removed over time, notably in ShB, without adding much replacement. It seems that everything is moving toward a system fully centered around boss mechanics and perfect dances to execute (DDR type). What further cements me in that line of thought are the recent criterion dungeons, and while the introduction of a chill but challenging light party mode to the game is actually great to get out of savage/ultimate/savage/ultimate, it even further tries to limit the amount of raises and recuperating actions to artificially gate progress, finally bringing healer's and raisers' MP pool to total uselessness in that specific game mode. One can still limp through those fights since they surprisingly enough don't have a huge amount of body checks (another breath of fresh air!), but that's about it.

We have since moved away from MP management mattering, which I thought would not be a thing anytime soon in the game, but how wrong was I. Let's list what battlesystem mechanics we have lost over time:

- Aggro management
- MP/personal resources management with negative MP/TP regens
- Party resource management (MP, etc)
- Progression based on damage, mitigation, raising, limping through
- Job rotations based on constraints like tactical nukes with long cast times (3+ seconds Flare, 3s Fire IV, 2.5s Glare, 5s Flamethrower, etc), homogenization of actions...
- Homogenization of raid burst timers, often combined with hard raid mechanics just to artificially inflate difficulty (pinax, act 2/4, superchain 1, superchain 2A, classical elements, pangenesis, caloric theory 2... notice a pattern yet? You'll find the same in criterions)
- Actual pets with HP pools as their own entities.

What we have left so far:

- Healing
- Mitigation, in fact we have a crapload of those now, but you could do with half less and still be fine...

What's left is rarely what's killing or wiping you. What does is someone fucking up a mechanic most of the time. The rest is essentially DDR and running all around artificial platforms. I'm not saying that mechanics were not a thing back then, far from it, and I still enjoy the ones that feel tactical enough (part 2 of 4th savage fights, etc), but it's a matter of ratios. Those days it feels like 95% of fights are just doing mechanics. I could have a third party tool playing my rotation for me and it wouldn't even matter, because there is no real choice and player agency left anymore to begin with, no party support, no player toolkit coordination and synergy. I'm not saying rotations are easier or anything, I'm just saying choice and tactics have progressively left the field to focus on Dance Dance Revolution. I feel that the game isn't going in a direction I like, and while I'm sure some players do like it, I don't, so here is my useless feedback. At least I do hope it works as an observation of the game mechanical evolution...?


( edit maybe I should have posted this in other battle systems... )

Edit 2: I forgot to add pets to the list of casualties. Maybe they removed the clunk and jank, but pets are now essentially tied to your character casting an ability on your own hotbar, activating the pet's mirror ability, and introducing some lag and delays for little reason. It's a joke.

[KenZentra]

I absolutely agree, (also maybe it being in another place, maybe even General Discussion idk) I've also said somewhere out there in some thread, that in many cases the boss itself is the least important part of an encounter. Repositioning themselves, all damage is kinda predetermined (for instance never crits), mechanics are less about "deal with this problem" and more of "stand here to not die" and when the mechanic is over, thats it no fallout from it the builds up through the encounter. Most the arenas are flat squares and circles. In this 3D game, there really isnt a 3D aspect to the game. For example BLM in PVP has Superflare, and it barely works in FL because of the difference in altitude. You really could press all of the models down into flat images and play the game top-down and get roughly the same experience.

So much of the game is simplified, there really isnt any complex systems in the game and absolutely no customization aside from your player model and glamour. No player expression aside from your looks either. This game has SO MUCH potential for customization, but there is either too much structure (things being formulaic) or a lack of ambition from the devs for one reason or another. Idk if its that SE is trying to min-max revenue (as companies always do) by keeping things easy to plan, make, balance, introduce, build upon rather than spending more on a bigger team, and potentially costly overhauls, but its suffocating.

My favorite duty of all time is T1. Its really basic, and thats fine, but the design for just the instance itself leaves me in awe of how amazing it looks, so much change in altitude especially for the boss fight. And the boss fight, also very basic, but has a 3D aspect to the fight, you can't necessarily easily move from platform to platform when there is a AoE so where YOU are positioned matters beyond just "Stand here to not get hit".

It really is DDR nowadays, and its sad.

[HikariKurosawa]

Mechanic based difficulty is always going to create more unique and engaging encounters compared to rotation based difficulty. I love the direction this game has been heading in personally, and can't really relate to those who want more complex rotations back.

Maybe it's because I refuse to use third party tools and actually have to figure out the mechanics on my own. It would make a lot of sense for people who are cheating at the game to find it boring. When rotations are the difficult component, mechanics have to be simplified and homogenized. Then boss fights have little to no identity or are extremely simplistic.

It's much better this way, the solution is to just uninstall all the third party tools(cheats) that most people complaining about the direction of rotations have installed.

[Rithy255]

Mechanic based difficulty is always going to create more unique and engaging encounters compared to rotation based difficulty. I love the direction this game has been heading in personally, and can't really relate to those who want more complex rotations back.

Maybe it's because I refuse to use third party tools and actually have to figure out the mechanics on my own. It would make a lot of sense for people who are cheating at the game to find it boring. When rotations are the difficult component, mechanics have to be simplified and homogenized. Then boss fights have little to no identity or are extremely simplistic.

It's much better this way, the solution is to just uninstall all the third party tools(cheats) that most people complaining about the direction of rotations have installed.

Not everyone is looking for mechanic based difficulty, Alot of people like MMORPG's for the RPG aspect feeling that their build (class in this case) brings something to the team and has a different sort of feeling to the rest of the other classes.

You can argue that we should all care about fight design only, but that's not what everyone wants.

I actually think this sort of class Varity and RPG aspects helps fight design be more repayable personally but that's just my opinion I guess.

[HikariKurosawa]

Like dance partner, ninja trick attack, samurai dps, black mage dps, bard songs, dragoon eye, rdm and smn revive, smn consistent dps and flashy summons, the list goes on. I don't see a problem at all with what jobs in this game have to bring to the table individually.

I think tons of players in this game just use third party addons that take away so much from the experience that they have become unable to actually assess how the game feels anymore. I'm not saying you do, but too many people abuse cheats in this game.

[Rithy255]

Like dance partner, ninja trick attack, samurai dps, black mage dps, bard songs, dragoon eye, rdm and smn revive, smn consistent dps and flashy summons, the list goes on. I don't see a problem at all with what jobs in this game have to bring to the table individually.

I think tons of players in this game just use third party addons that take away so much from the experience that they have become unable to actually assess how the game feels anymore. I'm not saying you do, but too many people abuse cheats in this game.

I barely touch harder content currently, I did used to but not my thing currently as fight design to me feels kinda meh.
I think people who are wanting more class design and jobs to be more interesting actually are the reverse. People who want more RPG aspects and interesting job design are not high optimisers who might be using said tools.

I'm more of a casual/midcore player who just wants classes to feel different from one another personally, I think the funny thing you didn't list is whats my key issue is you didn't list a tank/Healer here because I think those designs are what hurt the game a lot in Varity and DPS seems to slowly be going in the same direction that tanks/healers already are in, which has caused people to actually speak out... mainly the whole "2minute meta"

The game isn't the same game as it used to be and for better or for worse some people don't really like that and others don't mind it, Usually I find it's the people who complain about their job not doing "top damage" is the reason why a lot of things get changed and Not the people who want to enjoy class Varity.

[HikariKurosawa]

I barely touch harder content currently, I did used to but not my thing currently as fight design to me feels kinda meh.
I think people who are wanting more class design and jobs to be more interesting actually are the reverse. People who want more RPG aspects and interesting job design are not high optimisers who might be using said tools.

I'm more of a casual/midcore player who just wants classes to feel different from one another personally, I think the funny thing you didn't list is whats my key issue is you didn't list a tank/Healer here because I think those designs are what hurt the game a lot in Varity and DPS seems to slowly be going in the same direction that tanks/healers already are in, which has caused people to actually speak out... mainly the whole "2minute meta"

The game isn't the same game as it used to be and for better or for worse some people don't really like that and others don't mind it, Usually I find it's the people who complain about their job not doing "top damage" is the reason why a lot of things get changed and Not the people who want to enjoy class Varity.

I don't have enough experience with tank or healer to remark on them. Sage and white mage in my experience are extremely different though. Same with gunbreaker and the other tanks I have played.

What kind of differences would you want really? Visually speaking every job is extremely unique, the pace of their rotations is also unique, the tools they have are all very different, can you please elaborate on what is so similar and what you would do differently? I don't really see this problem. 2 minute window just makes sense, it doesn't define the way a job plays. It defines the pace of the encounters.

[Rithy255]

I'll just list the Issues I think a lot of people seem to find in (tank/healer/dps) design.
Tank:

• In Terms of tank's DPS you generally just press your main combo (that usually just being the first three buttons) and gain resource Gunbreaker is most likely the most defined tank currently, War/Drk pretty much borrow the same offensive play style from one another DRK just feeling more visually.
• In terms of defensives, in the core of it Tanks all have very similar mitigation value, which was not something in previous expansions such as Shb/SB where tanks at least felt differently defensive wise
• Aggro management, while this wasn't only the tanks job a lot of players feel like tanks have generally gotten less to do specific to tank which goes back into them not feeling that very different DPS/Defensive wise so in general tanks just feel like boring DPS without aggro management, this also with stances on how tanks used to have ways to get more risk vs reward.

Healer

• The core gameplay of healer is currently focused on DPS most the time and throw out a ogcd heal, which all healers share pretty much the same rotation, Sage has phlegma that stands out but that's about it, A lot of people want to actually have more damage buttons as a healer because a lot of that time spent is not actually healing.
• On the other side you have healer players who want to Heal a lot more, which again the current gameplay of healer is very similar even if it may feel different to you, as your job is to keep pressing your damage button and to throw out a heal, all healers share this same fundamental design so to someone who mainly only plays healer they will feel like they're just playing the same job with new visuals.

DPS

• They fit into the same burst each and every cycle, a lot of DPS gameplay revolves around the burst phase, some like ninja will fit into a 1minute cycle with a slightly stronger 2 minute cycle, some will more focus on that 2minute cycle, This leads to a lot of people who play DPS feel that the Jobs kind of have the same purpose and cycle.
• Ranged jobs, others like ninja as well, don't really feel like the utility/dps hybrids they used to be they used to bring a lot more then just damage buffs and a extra raid wide defensive. They used to be a very team based role which a lot of people enjoyed.

I think the Main issue is while yes some jobs feel different, the core gameplay loop is all the same, all DPS are meant to fit one box and purpose in a group, same with tanks and healers, Beyond that The variety of the rotations and damage buttons is slowly being made easier as well which creates people to really not like the direction that the games going in.

I also want to feel like my job choice matters, if not that at least that my job choice feels different which I really don't feel as a tank player anymore.

[HikariKurosawa]

I'll just list the Issues I think a lot of people seem to find in (tank/healer/dps) design.

Yeah I can't relate to all of this personally. Every job plays very differently even though they have similar core functions. What you're describing is just cohesive and balanced game design. FFXIV plays like FFXIV basically.

Ninja is nothing like samurai or any other melee dps, just like all the others. Black mage is extremely different from the other casters. SMN as well, RDM as well. All tanks play very differently too. It turns out that in order for the game to be balanced, the healer and tank roles need a specific toolkit for things to work. No healer feels the same to me, no tank feels the same to me, no dps feels the same to me.

Saying that everything is homogenized because it falls into a 2 minute window just doesn't work for me as an argument personally. Timing doesn't determine the gameplay. Ranged dps jobs should feel like ranged dps jobs.

"The variety of the rotations and damage buttons is slowly being made easier" can you explain how variety is made easier? I get that rotations are becoming more polished and smooth, but this is necessary to enable boss fights that don't feel like a training dummy with how many abilities we have currently. Rotations used to be a lot less complex anyway so I don't get it. Buff timing and upkeep was maybe more complicated sure, but the amount of skills used was extremely simplistic in comparison to what we have now. Even ShB feels simple compared to EW.

Your job choice does matter, choose the fantasy that appeals to you most. If I want to be an bard because I like bow and arrow gameplay, I shouldn't be reduced to a support member of the team. Play the job that suits your taste most and change your priorities I guess. I think people get too caught up in the systems parts of mmos lately and not caught up enough in the fantasy of it all. I hate to say it but it sounds like you don't appreciate the great game you get to play.

[Rithy255]

I'm done responding after this I think this discussion will just go into circles, I've tried to explain mine and others perspectives here, I think you're missing that people just don't view everything the same way as you, I respect you like aspects about the game, but that comes with respecting that others may disagree with certain aspects about the game

I appreciate the game for the friends I've made and experiences I've had, the lore the world, the MSQ. The gameplay? the job design? Yeah I have issues with that and I'd prefer if it was designed different, a lot of others do too, people are should talk about what they would like to be changed. If I didn't appreciate it I wouldn't say anything and play something else.

Jobs may not feel the same to you but, you have to realise that a large amount of the community generally see's how very similar jobs have become in recent expansions. I'm also not saying every job is the exact same. Again a lot of bard players want to be that support/dps hybrid they used to which a lot of players would prefer more team based DPS jobs (even in the job guide it mentions ranged DPS "providing support to allies"). I'm not saying Ninja/sam ect. Feel the same this was mostly a point about tanks/healers, but they feel more the same then they used to, which others may not like, this is what i was pointing out.

Timing doesn't fully determine the gameplay of the job but it does actually effect how the jobs play in similar ways, PLD wouldn't have been changed to fit into timers if that wasn't the case, strict burst timings also effect things like haste buffs not really working or jobs not wanting skill speed Varity, the list goes on, I could really state how the "2 minute meta" effects gameplay. 1/2 minute bursts play a big factor on limiting job design even if you can work around it. I'm not even fully against 1/2 minute meta but again I prefer SHB timings feeling less strict I liked how Ninja could apply trick attack to the boss often with a 60s buff to help the party but that was changed to only be for self. Honestly the 2 minute meta argument doesn't really matter and is something I don't really mind if it was changed or not I just want more team based gameplay and some old aspects I preferred about the game back, I'm more concerned about tank/healer design more then anything.

All I'm saying is that a lot of people prefer the more RPG aspects of ff14 that have been took out and changed, the game is very different to what it used to be, you have to realise that not everyone will view the game in the same way.