This is the biggest reason why Tanks and Healers are designed to be braindead easy.

[Renathras]

Long post, apologies in advance:

Which isn't a surprise if all the tank did was charge into a pack and then attack a single mob. Half of SMN's kit does AoE damage so of course he's going to get aggro every trash pull and inevitably die if the healer can't keep him up. What's he supposed to do, spam Ruin?

Well, for starters, it's unclear that's actually what happened. The chat log starts at the first boss, so we don't know ANYthing that happened before the first boss.
The abacus run posted by Mane afterwords starts in the second trash segment of the dungeon, well after the first boss.
That's the only place at all we see the Tank charge.

While it MAY have happened before that, we have no evidence posted to date indicating it did. Meaning you're drawing conclusions based on zero evidence at all. Do you not see how that's a problem and may be misleading you? Some evidence could come out that justifies your position, but we've seen none to date that does. And no, "I know how bad players are bad, trust me" is not evidence.

And for the record, if in that situation, I would switch to a single target rotation and just roll with it, personally. It's an Expert Roulette. If it takes 40 minutes, why would I care? I don't que for dungeons if I don't have time to burn, and I get that it's a roll of the dice who and what I get there. If I felt it was too slow, I'd quit and eat the penalty doing something else with my life. I do agree that would suck, but I'd be polite talking to the Tank with a suggestion on what ability he could use to help things along, and if he didn't start using an AOE rotation, I'd swap to single target and lock his target. I'm old school enough to remember having to do that with low level PLD Tanks in ARR, as well as having played other MMOs where you just follow the Tank's target swaps and attack their specific targets. That's what agro management looks like.

...what I AM curious about, though, is that if the Healer was at all healing the Tank, then the Healer should have drawn agro from all the mobs the Tank wasn't attacking, right?

...so why was only the SMN dying, not the Healer? That only makes sense if the SMN was pulling additional packs ahead of the Tank OR the Tank WAS using an AOE for initial agro, and then swapping to single target where the Healer simply didn't get more agro than the Tank's initial AOE.

That's...actually a new wrinkle in this mystery. Why was the Healer NOT dying/drawing agro from the Tank as well? If the Tank was using no AOEs at all, the Healer should have drawn agro from the enemies that the Tank was not hitting...right? Even if the SMN pulled some with an AOE, when the SMN died, they'd proximity agro on the Tank/Healer...yet they seem not to have. What's the explanation for that?

The plot thickens...

https://twitter.com/mane_tank/status...44752157131002

...okay, NOW this is getting interesting. This is FAR too much effort to put into this drama, but now I'm kind of enthralled, so let's get some serious forensics going. And don't even pretend you don't care now, we're all committed (in more ways than one) to this at this point. XD

Look at this video. SPECIFICALLY, pause at around 20/21 seconds in. UP UNTIL THEN, the SMN had full health. Meaning UP UNTIL THEN, the Tank was holding agro. I'm not really accustomed to seeing abacus video (didn't know it had that feature, but cool), but looking at the damage meter and the icons on the bottom, we can tell what abilities the SMN, Mane Tank, there is using. The SMN seems to have gotten through his entire Titan phase at this point in the trash pull encounter and has pulled out Ifrit. You can clearly see when he first takes a notch of damage, going from 81k/100% health to 79k/97.2%, that he has Ifrit up with the gap closer and slam ready as you can see next to his health bar in the bottom center-left. The enemy "Armor of Baron" is down to 38% health at this point in the fight. When the SMN dies, the Armor of Baron has 9.3% health remaining, and does not deagro or reset, meaning it has SOMEONE else in the party on its agro table at this point in time as well.

Note there are also Armor of Baron 2, 3, and 4 enemies, with 2 taking more damage than 3 or 4, but this is somewhat irrelevant since Mane Tank isn't taking damage until 21 sec into the fight. Original Hellhound joins the fight about 10 seconds in.

Further, if we slow down even more and look at the bottom center (the enemy's target), it's the tank (Ren) for the first 11 seconds of the encounter, after which it is someone else, Maria, who I'm guessing is the healer (SGE). Interestingly, the SGE doesn't seem to be losing health (bottom right corner is the party's healthbars, I believe?), while the Tank is continuing to do so.

I'm guessing the purple bars are shields, so that's probably what's going on with the SGE's health not moving.

.

What this now appears to be is a Tank going in, using AOE, getting agro from the enemies, then focus targeting them one by one, with the Healer getting agro once the Tank's agro lead has worn off, and then the SMN getting agro after the enemy is nearly dead (well, down to around 1/3rd health left). This means the Tank had an initial agro lead. I'm not sure (again, not familiar with this feature, so someone who is, please clarify if you know otherwise) how much agro face pulling gives, but it surely isn't THAT much? As such, it seems likely this is the sequence of events:

Tank charges in.
Tank uses AOE for initial threat (or at least the parts of the single-target rotation that are naturally AOE, such as...Salted Earth, maybe?).
Tank switches to single target (this is...more common than you might expect).
Healer gradually gets agro via healing.
SMN eventually gets agro via damage.
SMN dies.
Healer has agro again.

Unless Tanks get a pretty substantial agro lead by face pulling, it seems the Tank likely was initially using some AOE attack.

The other wrinkle here is the Tank is still taking damage from...something (his health bar keeps taking chunks), meaning he's got agro from...something, despite this being the most damaged enemy and presumably the one the Tank is single-target attacking. Another explanation is the Tank standing in various AOEs, but if the healer had the rest of the agro, it seems they'd be taking far more damage where they seem to be holding fine using (presumably Eukrasia Diagnosis?) shields.

Still not enough data to say conclusively, but that appears to be the ballpark of what's happening.

.

...of course, none of this is relevant to the "stop running" "use provoke" that started the whole drama llama episode. That happened during the prior boss fight, something Mane did not feel like posting to the public in his (charitably) rebuttal to Rudrake.

It seems fairly likely now that Mane was misbehaving prior to the first boss in some way, got really pissy during the boss fight, and when the SAM called him out on it, found something else to complain about in the very next (following boss) trash pull. Whether he was right to do so then or not, his initial complaint ("use provoke") was during a boss fight and had literally nothing to do with AOE rotations.

The fact Mane's defense/rebuttal AND chat logs seem cut specifically to mislead people and paint his position in the most positive light possible is not a good look, since it seems he's trying to manipulate and spin a narrative, not present the facts fairly. It also seems he's trying to shift the discussion to the latter point of contention, ignoring he started it with the first point of contention.

Basically, Mane did a bad, got caught, lashed out, then tried to get revenge, framing the argument as "us vs them" for "us non-sucking players vs Tanks that won't AOE and their white knight defenders" so that he would have the internet on his side despite the initial drama had nothing to do with AOE rotations. It's somewhat like someone getting in a fight with someone, getting beaten up, then claiming the other person was racist/sexist/religious bigot/whatever for attacking them so that people will take their side when they were the one in the wrong in the first place.

.

I dunno, the more I look at it, the more this looks like the SAM was in the right even more.

I can't disagree with you any harder,

Oh, come now, I'm sure you can disagree with me harder, you need only apply yourself to the task.

Read what I said directly above all this. Note the conversation DID NOT START with discussions about AOE. The SMN did not ask the tank to AOE. Even if you read the chat log, what's it say? "use provoke". The initial drama started during a boss fight. Do you often use AOE in boss fights with no adds? That's a strange way to start your argument. Even Mane didn't.

The SAM was asking the SMN to stop, and the SMN was complaining about the (dead and getting Raised) tank not using provoke to draw agro. The "humble brag" may or may not have been true, we don't know since no one has released the abacus data, but the reason the SAM wasn't "tanking the mobs" was because there were no mobs at the time, it was a boss fight. There was no "I'm just a poor SMN whose rotation incorporates AOE and the Tank isn't AOEing so I'm dying" in a boss fight, since the Tank's single target rotation should be more than sufficient to maintain agro. The reason the SMN got agro was because the Tank died.

Further, it doesn't read like an attempt to mend wounded pride, that's you imposing a lot of your own interpretation on the SAM in his video. It was more than enough of a rebuttal, since UNLESS HE POSTED THAT VIDEO, none of us would know the argument started DURING A BOSS FIGHT. Something I find it odd you seem not to grasp since you watched enough of his video to see him "rationalize" doing less DPS...

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Ah, yes, because "Defendant response to Prosecutor charges!!" is the Defendant asking to be attacked by the entire law enforcement community, right? What kind of logic is that? Yes, you still describe it as being brigaded, and he isn't "the village idiot". Moreover, it's strange you say he was attempting to get views when all this attention was placed on him by two other people, Mane and Xeno, attempting to get views at his detriment. Clearing one's name and setting the record straight is a very strong impulse in Humans, if you were unaware, even if they are anonymous. I feel like he realized speaking out would get him in the spotlight, but he felt he needed to defend himself and his statements anyway, and he realized if he was going to get attacked, he might as well benefit from it at least somewhat. I don't fault him for that, considering he was the victim in this whole affair.

.

The conversation seems to have started during the boss fight, and spilled over into the following trash pull, to be precise. We don't know about the rest after that, since no one posted any more of the chat log - if there is any more - and no one posted any of the rest of the dungeon run - before and including the first boss, as well as after Mane's death in the trash pack after the first boss - for us to look at.

The crux of the discussion wasn't about AOE. What appears to have happened is the SAM called the SMN on attacking the Tank during the boss fight, and the SMN couldn't leg it go and started complaining about other things (and dying), and from the SAM's video, which the SMN has not said was untrue, the SMN had been running ahead and pulling additional trash before the first boss, as well as dying when doing so.

It seems the SAM was more saying the SMN was being a jerk by his behavior, not for merely asking about an AOE rotation being used.

.

One thing seems very true:

A lot of people in the modern world draw a lot of conclusions based on their biases and with essentially no supporting evidence, then react extremely negatively to people challenging the worldview they construct out of their biases with...actual facts and a "just the facts" presentation and analysis of the evidence we actually have.

...but I suppose that isn't news. It's just weird seeing mob mentality so much in real time. And so much emotional energy devoted to taking a side because of said pre-established biases and a desire to "defend one's side".

I get it. People think the game is braindead and that players are below even minimal levels of competence, and want to blame "white knights" for enabling it.
...however...
...that doesn't change the "facts on the ground", which seem to suggest Mane was kind of being a jerk, got called out on it, and went full scorched earth. Him being right about the AOE rotation doesn't cover the fact he was on the Tank's butt well before that, and turned his ire and his full fandom on the SAM for daring to get in his way, neither of which are acceptable behaviors.

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Also also:

I found what I think is the Tank's profile and log page. They seem pretty consistent. So it's unlikely a troll unless they are EXTREMELY committed to the bit. They don't have "most Jobs at 90", either, just the Tanks and a smattering of other Jobs, 5 if you count SMN/SCH as separate, 4 if you don't.

As Cole Evyx said in his video, and Sebazy in her post, it may be a person who thinks this is the correct way to play or is an older/impaired person.

EDIT:

Only those who were in the party know what happened and at least 3 of the 4 are guilty of being idiots in some way (we have no idea what part the healer may have played /shrug).

...

And trolls exist, as we know well here in the forums. Turning something into big drama is the last thing you want to do if you are dealing with a troll - that's what they want.

Don't want to post yet again in this thread, so just editing this in here:

Hear hear! Very well said, Jojoya.

[Gullis]

Seems this happened after 1st pull, so probably just another YPYT tank who got his ego hurt, seeking revenge on the SMN

Also I think the tank was revealed to have most jobs at 90, so this isn't a new player issue.

[Jojoya]

Look at this video. SPECIFICALLY, pause at around 20/21 seconds in. UP UNTIL THEN, the SMN had full health. Meaning UP UNTIL THEN, the Tank was holding agro. I'm not really accustomed to seeing FFLog video (didn't know it had that feature, but cool),

But the replay linked does clearly show the tank losing aggro at 10 seconds. The healer got aggro at 10 seconds then Mane got it at 17 seconds.

First for context, the replay is for the first trash pack on the bridge after the second boss. They only engaged the first pack on the bridge where most tanks would grab the second pack as well.

The tank did hold aggro on the Armor of Baron for about 6 seconds after gaining initial aggro at about 3.5 seconds. It does not look like he was close enough yet for any melee attack or Flood of Darkness (though that could be the replay not time-syncing correctly). Assuming the replay is accurate, my guess is that he either used Unmend with Grit turned off (if it was on, he should have held aggro on the Armor longer even if he didn't hit it a second time) or he used Abyssal Drain.

At 10 seconds, he seems to use Plunge - and immediately loses aggro on the Armor. That means he targeted something else for Plunge or he would have at least temporarily gotten aggro back. The Armor is now targeting the healer. The important part of the healer's health bar is cut off at the edge of the replay so I have no idea how much damage they might have taken but they got a good shield up after a couple of seconds. Everyone in the party has taken a fair amount of damage at this point when only the tank should be. The tank is not trying to hold aggro on the pack.

At 17 seconds, the Armor switches from the healer to Mane. The healer and SAM appear to stop taking any damage at this point. Mane's health starts to go steadily down after the last of the remaining shield is consumed and finally dies at 34 seconds.

The tank was taking some damage during all this time but they seemed to be using TBN just fine since there are several periods of HP remaining consistent. It looked like the only shields the tank was getting from the healer was from Eukrasia Prognosis or Holos as the rest of the party would get a shield at the same time.

I'm still of the opinion that there is plenty of blame to be spread around here, except for possibly the healer since they seemed to stay out of the dispute. All 3 of them got their hands dirty in one way or another. But Mane's the one that decided to turn it into public drama by tagging Xenos when he sent his message. And of course Edelgarde can have credit for bringing it up here with a clickbait title instead of being smart and ignoring it like most intelligent people would.

No, this situation has nothing to do with why SE makes job changes to tanks and healers.

[Ardeth]

Also, how empty does your life have to be like, "I'm going to make a giant scene out of nothing for clout." Streamers aside, what kind of world do these people live in? So you had a bad run. Everyone has them. Buckle up buttercup. The world is dangerous. If you get this bent out of shape over something, not even tangible, I'm horrified to see how you react to them messing your food up at a fast food restaurant. These people live on Neptune. I swear.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]He titled his video as IDIOT SAM RESPONDS TO XENO in all caps and with 4 exclamation marks. Hard to call it as being brigaded if you invited the guy's entire fanbase to throw tomatoes at the village idiot. Considering he even plugged his twitch/channel and stuff at the end, it felt like a deliberate way to get some eyes on his content[...]

Judging from 3 related tweets & Xenos' video, it seems clear anyhow that the SAM wants to seek the attention, doesn't matter whether it's good or bad.

[ZiraZ]

SAM throwing a meltie instead of helping the SMN who has to deal with an entire trash pack chasing him down the second he uses any of their abilities, also bitching that the SMN is running around to minimize Boss auto attacks done to him and avoid death, what a trash personality that SAM has.
Never protect a bad player just to get good boy points.

[chaotix69]

Healers "braindead easy"? Mao thinkings this little bits hyperbole. Mao is mostly BLM buts Mao also does little bits WHM. Mao finds being WHM SO much harder than being BLM. Is has to watch for many things! Red puddles, Boss, all Group Mates healths and conditions. If things go South, also has to find right time and place to rez Group Mate. Mao thinkings Healers jobs not easy! Maybe peoples thinkings this so because thems experienced Healers and is used to the difficulty?

Why are you talking like this

[Eraden]

Why are you talking like this

Mao nots know Eorzean language very well. Mao raised by Dragons. Mao good at Dragon speakings.

[Boblawblah]

Why are you talking like this

Mao is Mao, and she is very precious, and cute, and if you hurt her feelings..

[Rithy255]

I mean I think it's more of people generally being scared to give advice or tell someone how to AOE. I don't think it's toxic to say "hey can you press your AOE button? it takes the mobs off the DPS/Healer!." I think you can actually try to talk to someone and help them but a lot of people are frankly scared to say anything in duties. (Including me I want to have fun people people in a duty, but I know if anything is took the wrong way then I can get a warning or even more).

I feel like I was lucky as a sprout tank as i looked at guides confused why i was struggling to tank well in my first few duties, but you're meant to learn from your mistakes and advice from others... If you're not being told what you are doing isn't good for the team them they will assume they're doing the best they can.

This is how you get people in 90 duties who don't know how to press AOE, who don't know that they can afford to dps as healer sometimes, ect. Because comminating that in the first place is not something someone wants to do in the first place.

I didn't even say anything when I had a level 90 gladiator clearly griefing in my duty (most likely trying to get reactions tbh), because at the end of the day I rather just deal with the duty and get on with it, I much rather just get it over with.