This is the biggest reason why Tanks and Healers are designed to be braindead easy.

[Tahbitha]

So basically OP is bored and wants to stir up drama. Nothing really to see here.

Oh, I don't know.. watching folks stir up drama sure beats, you know, being productive at the office during work hours.

[Thurmnmurmn]

Oh, I don't know.. watching folks stir up drama sure beats, you know, being productive at the office during work hours.

Agreed. Most the time I spend on these forums is at work.

I watched the vids on this last night.
I actually find xenos take on how he does dungeons hilarious and I may apply it myself (the pulling ahead and dying on purpose for the group to keep moving forward).

[Avoidy]

OP's post is kinda grim but he ain't wrong. Every time I find myself wishing we had more fights requiring positional awareness (i.e. the tank having to move the boss to a telegraphed safe spot), I'll get something basic like copied factory where our 3 tanks can't even take their adds and just walk the hell away and then I'll remember why we can't have nice things. And people will say "well, just do extremes if that's what you want," but look at half of this stuff, it's just fighting a wall lol. And the messed up part is, I 100% get why and part of me is relieved that when I'm on my NIN trying to just do my burst, I won't have to worry about some tank keeping it in a place that's about to be lava soon or something. But then when I actually play tank, I'm falling asleep because it's so damn boring.

[Troxbark]

What takes more effort? A major rework of 10 years of content or a rework of 4-8 jobs?

I love when people say that dpsing "is not their core" while ignoring that we used to have many more dpsing tools in the past (so it kinda was part of the core), many of the more iconic tools we had used to relate to dps or how dpsing is almost all we currently do at any difficulty. Every role is at least half dps in this game and it has been like that for at least over half a decade

Again, a brain dead take. Why would you adjust a decades worth of content instead of simply improving the future content? Are you aware that completely changing 8 classes would actually have a significant impact and require SE to adjust old content which is a waste of everyones time?

And no, dps is not the core of a tank or healer because their primary responsibility is aggro and healing. Whoever I replied to wants to change them to DPS+ instead of actually addressing the fundamental problem of current fight design simply because he finds DPS more fun. Congrats, you support all DPS classes with even less engaging content. Oh boy, another stationary boss that hits like a kitten is going to be a HUGE game changer when it's all dps, lmao.

[WaxSw]

Again, a brain dead take. Why would you adjust a decades worth of content instead of simply improving the future content? Are you aware that completely changing 8 classes would actually have a significant impact and require SE to adjust old content which is a waste of everyones time?

Because the majority of the content is old content? Because some of that old content is what the majority of players play the most through roulettes? Because a redesign that only works on certain instances is by definition an incomplete one? Its really really so basic that even without using the brain someone can understand it.

And no, dps is not the core of a tank or healer because their primary responsibility is aggro and healing.

Aggro that doesnt require any management and healing that is unnecessary in the majority of the content? It may be their basic function but that doesn't mean its all their core

Through the whole game the kits are defined by their dps wether you like it or not because dps is king. Look at the Ast cards and how they changed to give all damage, at Sch and how Aetherflow still has ED, how Whm's afflatus doesn't really become a complete mechanic until it has missery. I mean just look at any healer log and you'll see how dpsing is what they do the most regardless of the difficulty of the content and how their optimization is all about increasing it, dps is king in this game. And thats mentioning healer but in tank's case the focus on damage is even more considering they barely have any aggro tool compared to the amount of dps tools they have.

Whoever I replied to wants to change them to DPS+ instead of actually addressing the fundamental problem of current fight design simply because he finds DPS more fun

Because we have said it several hundreds of times in these forums, its not viable. The binary nature of healing means there will always be downtime because the healing usefulness is limited, one must make that downtime engaging and that is not something that can be solved with simply fight design.

Congrats, you support all DPS classes with even less engaging content. Oh boy, another stationary boss that hits like a kitten is going to be a HUGE game changer when it's all dps, lmao

You mean like we have now? With some semblance of a dps rotation at least we would have something to do when the bosses don't hit hard instead of just spamming 1 button. I see it as an improvement.

[Renathras]

There was a movie I once saw, but can never remember the name of. I think it had the guy from The Mummy as the main character. He and his parents had hidden out in a bomb shelter the father had bought back in the Cold War. They got a message of an incoming Soviet strike and went in, but never received the all clear. So years later, the boy, now grown, comes out. Their shelter was under the red light district, so of course hilarity ensues with him and the parents thinking these mutants (punk hair styles and piercings) was a result of the nuclear fallout, and they resolve to stay in their bunker. But when the father comes down with some illness, the son goes out to find medicine and learn about the new world.

He befriends a stripper girl and a gay guy, and when figuring out the guy is gay - obviously at odds with 1950s social norms, and this movie was from the 90s when that topic was still somewhat risque - he's still entirely polite to him. Later, the gay guy, talking to the stripper, explains to her that the 1950s guy told him his definition for what a gentleman was. I don't remember the exact words, but it was something to the effect of helping others and making them feel comfortable, embodied in politeness and self-sacrifice, and regardless of if it was reciprocated.

While I don't always manage, I've always thought that's a nice definition for how one should conduct themselves in general.

So, I think that applies here...

But aren’t those explanations highly subjective?

They are.

But that's how social norms come to exist. Think about general social norms. You generally stand about 3-4 feet from someone talking to them. Why not 1 foot face to face? Why not 10? During the pandemic it was 6. It's also different in different cultures, with some being fine with 1 foot, practically nose-to-nose, while that's considered rude and very uncomfortable to people from other cultures.

It's not a data thing, at the end of the day. "discomfort" is not a statistic you can quantify. If there's a small rock in your shoe on the one hand but your underwear band is digging into your skin at your hip on the other, which is more uncomfortable? Is there a device to measure the two levels of discomfort so we can quantify that? Can we verify that the one more uncomfortable to you is also more uncomfortable to everyone else? While we can attempt to establish things like the frowny-to-smiley face pain scale or "1-to-10" that hospitals will ask patients, those are entirely subjective. A woman who has given birth multiple times and lived through stepping on a landmine may have a different "5" than someone who...hasn't done thhose things.

But your question was "Why is <this>..?"

That's the answer to your question: It's from a time when agro management was actually serious business, AOE rotations were extremely rarely used (and many times, classes might only have a single AOE button and it be very resource intensive to use), and that's when role responsibilities were established in the primordial before times of early MMOs. And such is the power of inertia that it still stands to this day.

And I will tell you, being on both ends, a run going slow is WAY less distressing than being a tank in a run where people are over pulling and you're trying desperately to hold the situation together. The latter of those is FAR more uncomfortable, subjectively, to me. To others, they thrill at the excitement. This is why I'm a natural healer and a functional tank, but not a NATURAL tank personality type.

And what established the consensus is that, to a majority of people, wipes were more uncomfortable than slow runs. Again, the before times. But it's honestly even true today. For all we say that wipes aren't a big deal, if someone causes a wipe (or feels they do), that bothers a lot of people. It's the "great fear/anxiety" that tankxiety and healxiety are. Those are very real things that exist. You can say it's not rational, but that doesn't change the fact it exists and is the norm, since it seems to be true of more people than not.

Fear of failure (wipes being failure) is greater to most Humans than fear of going slow, even if the consequences of failure are relatively minor. Human psychology.

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Though I do agree with you that intent is a basis for what is toxic..."just trying to help" isn't always a defense. Help WHO? The person doing it or other people who don't want them to do it? It's a pretty loaded thing. "Why did you steal that $100 from my wallet?" "I was just trying to help." "Who? Because that's not helping me!" "Oh, I was trying to help myself pay my bills this month." If it seems clear someone else in the party (particularly the tank) doesn't want them doing it, then persisting is toxic.

I think in THIS case, it was likely toxic based on what Mane said in the chat (as Sebazy said, the hot mess that was) and his actions since have definitely been toxic.

But if you were asking the question in a vacuum:

Inertia (established norms) and people's natural fear of failure.

At the risk of derailing - and just for the double standard - what about the healer then ?
A tank that only pull "what they are comfortable with" (or wall to wall for that matter) may actively harm their experience.
By that logic it should be fine for a healer to pull or use rescue on the tank either to the next pack or away from it.
If the tank is already using AoE, one or two packs make little difference, as long as the healer is comfortable with the healing required they should dictate the pace, not the tank, right ?

Again, see above:

It's not actively harming anyone to "go slower".

This gets into a concept libertarians call "the NAP" or "non-aggression principle". In short "Your right to swing your fist ends at your neighbor's nose", or your rights are limited in a general sense by where they would conflict with the rights of others. At that point, disputes are decided by who was the aggressor, and if neither was, who would be most harmed. It's kind of a flow chart thing.

Also, force movement on other people/forced control of someone else against their will would generally be considered aggressive and a violation. So using Rescue on someone to force them to pull more would generally be considered VERY uncomfortable to the victim and bad. I remember PvPing in WoW some, and the single most "OMG!! HEARTATTACK!!!" inducing thing was the Death Knight grip pull thing. I f***ing hated that ability. It's making me mad just thinking about it, honestly, lol

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Here's the way I see it:

Go at the speed of the slowest person.

When traveling with a group of friends, if one person has a long stride and walks fast, it's generally rude to walk at that speed and either force everyone to keep up or outpace them.

What's generally considered polite is to slow to the speed of the slowest member. When you walk somewhere with your grandma (if she's older and slower than you), are you going to grab her arm and pull her down the block, or slow to her pace? Which would be rude and which would be respectful?

It's that simple.

In military or other joint movements (police, firefighters, etc), a similar principle applies. You can only move as fast as your slowest guy. In that sense, it's a more tactical consideration, obviously, and you also have to consider being ready for a fight at any time, including your destination (so a leader can't force march his people too much or they'll arrive exhausted and be easily beaten - Sun Tsu), instead of a matter of rudeness/politeness-respect, but the same principle is seen there as with you and your grandma walking down the street.

So, if 2 people want to go fast and 2 people want to go slow, you defer to the slow people. Same if it's 3/1 or 1/3. If all 4 agree on going fast, you go fast. If anyone doesn't, politeness and not being a social troglodyte would demand going at the slower person's speed.

Again, recall the explanation of a gentleman. To try and make others happy and comfortable, regardless of if it is reciprocated. If the slow person is just not okay with going fast, then forcing them to is bad. Whereas most people aren't terrified of going slow, they just...dislike it. It's kind of the difference of forcing an arachnophobe into a room filled with spiders vs making an Olympic sprinter walk to the store with grandma. One is intensely uncomfortable and cruel, the other is just mildly annoying. Some people may not be able to get over their fears. And that's okay. It's being a good person to accommodate that. Doubly so if the sacrifice to oneself in doing so is minimal.

And, at the end of the day, we're talking 4 man dungeons. Even if you go through them with everyone only using their 1 button, single pulling and single targeting down everything, you're in and out in 40 minutes or less. It's not like we're talking years of your life here or any substantial investment. And, as always, if you REALLY don't like what the group is doing or the pace it's going, the option always exists to leave, as you are not held hostage at the end of the day.

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Or, in a nutshell, this:

If a tank isn't comfortable double pulling, no one should be forcing that on them.
If a healer isn't comfortable with the tank double pulling/healing a double pull, no one should be forcing that on them.

Doing otherwise is toxic.

NOTE: You can, of course, do whatever you want. I'm only talking about social norms, politeness/respect, and answering those general questions in vacuum. As you say, at the risk of derailing, since we're pretty far in the weeds away from the topic itself at this point and talking in complete hypotheticals.

I know, speaking for myself, I don't grab my grandma and drag her down the street at my pace, so I wouldn't do so with strangers in a videogame, personally. To me, that's rude, so I avoid it. I can go double pulls, so whatever role I am, I'll go the pace the party goes. If someone wants to go slow, I have no issues with that; as I say, I never que for dungeons when I don't have time to burn.

It all goes back to understanding your party and being a responsible member of it. I got a healer the other night in Mt Gulg where we tried the big pulls but it just wasn't happening. I can tank them just fine with other healers. But they were struggling, I saw this, and I dialed it back. We got through just fine. If a tank pulls small when I'm healing, I'll let them know I have their back if they want to try larger, but I'm cool with adjusting for small as well. It costs us nothing to be a little kind and adjust if needed to what our party can handle.

A very wise and mature take, I think.

Are you aware that completely changing 8 classes would actually have a significant impact and require SE to adjust old content which is a waste of everyones time?

This is actually a really good point.

Adjusting Tanks and Healers to be just DPS with a 3-5 oGCDs to do actual mitigation and healing would make old content unclearble. Meaning all that old content would have to be reworked ANYway.

Not to mention I STRONGLY suspect a majority of FFXIV players do not want to play an "everyone's a DPS" game. If they did, they'd be playing something like GW2...which tried that and then eventually shoehorned the Trinity into the game anyway because it doesn't work well in organized content to have no healers/tanks, and players were basically figuring out ways to do it anyway.

The game would need to be completely redesigned from top to bottom to do it, it wouldn't just be some light impact change.

I saw this whole thing on Twitter. The SAM explained the stop running comment was because Mane grabbed a boss and was running it around and died because of it.

The tank does need to AoE but even when Mane first posted the conversation on his Twitter account and there wasn't the SAM's response, I felt like it seemed he was being kind of a jerk dps in the run, too.

Getting back on topic:

Yes, that's my take as well..

[Thurmnmurmn]

If this was in a random lvling dungeon I would agree. Let the tank pull at whatever speed they want.
But this was in an expert roulette. It's max LVL content. If you can't grasp the basics of your class at that point, that's not my or anyone else's problem.
And it's not like tanking is hard. Turn on stance and hit your aoe button. You don't even need to combo it if you don't want to.

[ty_taurus]

That's the answer to your question: It's from a time when agro management was actually serious business, AOE rotations were extremely rarely used (and many times, classes might only have a single AOE button and it be very resource intensive to use), and that's when role responsibilities were established in the primordial before times of early MMOs. And such is the power of inertia that it still stands to this day.

But not every player has been playing MMOs since the dawn of the genre. I certainly haven't. etiquette established in the dawn of early MMOs is as irrelevant to modern society as the social norms of 100 years ago is to today. Any social norms we should expect of players should come from the experience of playing the game now. So if we're trying to say that there is a common, silent understanding of how the game should be played, and it's about whether or not that understanding is respected or not, I would say that it's more understood that AoEs are for multiple enemies moreso than DPS aren't supposed to face tank enemies. And the reason I say this is because not only is there nothing in solo gameplay of FFXIV that teaches DPS players that they aren't supposed to tank enemies, but you could argue the opposite. When solo, DPS are always face-tanking enemies, particularly in solo duties. When the game throws you into a solo instance fight, it expects you to tank your own set of enemies. You aren't provided with a tank if you are a healer or DPS, you just deal with it. So if we're going to say that it's understandable that someone can reach level 90 and not know how to use an AoE button, then it's even more understandable that someone can reach level 90 and not realize that they shouldn't face-tank enemies as DPS.

[Renathras]

But not every player has been playing MMOs since the dawn of the genre.

Again, social norms.

Have you ever waved at someone? Participated in the action of a handshake? Surely those things predate your participation in society, do they not? They're still social norms, and considered rude in some circles to not participate in, right? If someone extends a hand and you walk by them without shaking it, saying "Not everyone's been alive since the time the handshake started being a common practice", they'd likely take you less as a rational person being reasonable and more as a rude person snubbing them - most people, anyway.

You can say it's irrelevant, and it is - supposedly the practice began as a way to check if someone else had a hidden dagger to assassinate you with, but then evolved into a sign of trust between friends "Why yes, check my sleeve, I have no dagger hidden, because we are friends and allies and I don't want to harm you", and later evolved into the handshake of today - and yet we still do it. Even during the pandemic when we were trying to (collectively) limit the practice, it was to replace it with another, the fistbump or shoulderbump, to still do the same thing with a different motion, as neither of those would serve any practical purpose, either.

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Now, as to the rest of your post:

You asked a question.

I answered the question asked.

Now you're trying to get me to defend the practice or...something?...but I'm not saying the practice is good or bad. I only was answering your question as to why one is considered toxic and the other not.

And, as I said in the other part of my post you didn't quote (I understand it was long, sorry):

But if you were asking the question in a vacuum:

Inertia (established norms) and people's natural fear of failure.

...was the super short version. To this I would probably add "and generally attempting to be polite to others", as I elaborated on in the part of my post replying to Calysto.

[SargeTheSeagull]

I do not care. If jobs being more fun means I have to deal with idiots in PF so be it. I’d rather have fun