This is the biggest reason why Tanks and Healers are designed to be braindead easy.

[KenZentra]

At the risk of derailing - and just for the double standard - what about the healer then ?
A tank that only pull "what they are comfortable with" (or wall to wall for that matter) may actively harm their experience.
By that logic it should be fine for a healer to pull or use rescue on the tank either to the next pack or away from it.
If the tank is already using AoE, one or two packs make little difference, as long as the healer is comfortable with the healing required they should dictate the pace, not the tank, right ?

If a tank isn't comfortable double pulling, no one should be forcing that on them.
If a healer isn't comfortable with the tank double pulling/healing a double pull, no one should be forcing that on them.

Doing otherwise is toxic.

[Troxbark]

What takes more effort? A major rework of 10 years of content or a rework of 4-8 jobs?

I love when people say that dpsing "is not their core" while ignoring that we used to have many more dpsing tools in the past (so it kinda was part of the core), many of the more iconic tools we had used to relate to dps or how dpsing is almost all we currently do at any difficulty. Every role is at least half dps in this game and it has been like that for at least over half a decade

Again, a brain dead take. Why would you adjust a decades worth of content instead of simply improving the future content? Are you aware that completely changing 8 classes would actually have a significant impact and require SE to adjust old content which is a waste of everyones time?

And no, dps is not the core of a tank or healer because their primary responsibility is aggro and healing. Whoever I replied to wants to change them to DPS+ instead of actually addressing the fundamental problem of current fight design simply because he finds DPS more fun. Congrats, you support all DPS classes with even less engaging content. Oh boy, another stationary boss that hits like a kitten is going to be a HUGE game changer when it's all dps, lmao.

[WaxSw]

Again, a brain dead take. Why would you adjust a decades worth of content instead of simply improving the future content? Are you aware that completely changing 8 classes would actually have a significant impact and require SE to adjust old content which is a waste of everyones time?

Because the majority of the content is old content? Because some of that old content is what the majority of players play the most through roulettes? Because a redesign that only works on certain instances is by definition an incomplete one? Its really really so basic that even without using the brain someone can understand it.

And no, dps is not the core of a tank or healer because their primary responsibility is aggro and healing.

Aggro that doesnt require any management and healing that is unnecessary in the majority of the content? It may be their basic function but that doesn't mean its all their core

Through the whole game the kits are defined by their dps wether you like it or not because dps is king. Look at the Ast cards and how they changed to give all damage, at Sch and how Aetherflow still has ED, how Whm's afflatus doesn't really become a complete mechanic until it has missery. I mean just look at any healer log and you'll see how dpsing is what they do the most regardless of the difficulty of the content and how their optimization is all about increasing it, dps is king in this game. And thats mentioning healer but in tank's case the focus on damage is even more considering they barely have any aggro tool compared to the amount of dps tools they have.

Whoever I replied to wants to change them to DPS+ instead of actually addressing the fundamental problem of current fight design simply because he finds DPS more fun

Because we have said it several hundreds of times in these forums, its not viable. The binary nature of healing means there will always be downtime because the healing usefulness is limited, one must make that downtime engaging and that is not something that can be solved with simply fight design.

Congrats, you support all DPS classes with even less engaging content. Oh boy, another stationary boss that hits like a kitten is going to be a HUGE game changer when it's all dps, lmao

You mean like we have now? With some semblance of a dps rotation at least we would have something to do when the bosses don't hit hard instead of just spamming 1 button. I see it as an improvement.

[Troxbark]

Because the majority of the content is old content? Because some of that old content is what the majority of players play the most through roulettes? Because a redesign that only works on certain instances is by definition an incomplete one? Its really really so basic that even without using the brain someone can understand it.

No one cares about old content, its a face roll with tank/healer and changing those 2 into outright DPS just makes it worse. The fact that you can't expand on your support of the idea to change tanks/heals into DPS shows how flawed it actually is.

Aggro that doesnt require any management and healing that is unnecessary in the majority of the content? It may be their basic function but that doesn't mean its all their core

"Adjust future content" should address that issue and are you really suggesting that a tanks primary role isn't aggro and a healers primary role isn't healing? Use your head.

Through the whole game the kits are defined by their dps wether you like it or not because dps is king. Look at the Ast cards and how they changed to give all damage, at Sch and how Aetherflow still has ED, how Whm's afflatus doesn't really become a complete mechanic until it has missery. I mean just look at any healer log and you'll see how dpsing is what they do the most regardless of the difficulty of the content and how their optimization is all about increasing it, dps is king in this game. And thats mentioning healer but in tank's case the focus on damage is even more considering they barely have any aggro tool compared to the amount of dps tools they have.

Again, because the current content does not require any thought. It does not require a tank to think about aggro and doesn't require a healer to think about healing. Changing tanks and healers into DPS only makes the content problem worse.

Because we have said it several hundreds of times in these forums, its not viable. The binary nature of healing means there will always be downtime because the healing usefulness is limited, one must make that downtime engaging and that is not something that can be solved with simply fight design.

You mean like we have now? With some semblance of a dps rotation at least we would have something to do when the bosses don't hit hard instead of just spamming 1 button. I see it as an improvement.

That's not what the original poster suggested, he wanted to change tank and healers into outright DPS with some tank/heal abilities. In response to it I suggested "adjust current content", which would address most of your complaints about aggro and healing as well... Which you've also argued against. Your suggestion to give healers a bit more dmg abilities isn't even what was originally being suggested. You've gone so far off topic and are just rambling at this point.

[Banriikku]

Ohhh.... drama... nice.

My take on this:
Frist the the healer .... ??? Whats about him ???
Second the SMN, i agree with the take about lvl 90 is not beginner anymore for a Expert Roullette.
Third the SAM, that looks like has some personal problems and has a very bad take plus denial of reality.
The tank..... full stop... this is trolling or griefing. Done. No excuses. I would kick or leave but not play with him... yup i am that petty.

Maybe even report because AOE and aggro as a tank are baseline - no mental gymnastics can make this change. As if i play a dancer and said i just dance, in the literal way - just emoting and as a SMN i just call for the egi and stop there because i am summoning thats my job "hur dur" and as DRK i just sit in the corner and broode away and smsh some cringe one liner about revenge and me - alone against the world. This is a clownshow and we are sitting in the first row.

[Sebazy]

The healer had the best idea of staying out of this mush

[Calysto]

I mean, if the DPS only had a singe target attack and there was no adds, the problem would be solved, clearly it's a game design issue where these are too harsh for expert payers !

[ty_taurus]

I know it's not an answer that people may like, but to a serious question, that's the serious answer.

But aren’t those explanations highly subjective? Do we have any data to support that one makes players more uncomfortable than the other? And if the point is to say it’s not okay to make players uncomfortable at all, then shouldn’t we approach the topic with a no tolerance policy? Not using AoEs can cause other players to unintentionally take aggro, particularly the healer who will generate aggro from all enemies by healing.

Whether or not behavior is seen as toxic should be based on intent. Is someone who pulls adds as a DPS intentionally trying to antagonize the other players, or are they just trying to help? How can you know for certain at any given moment? You can’t, so should we always assume the worst intentions or the best intentions? In either case, if the consensus is to treat misplay as worth addressing, then it should be done equally.

[Thurmnmurmn]

Oh, I don't know.. watching folks stir up drama sure beats, you know, being productive at the office during work hours.

Agreed. Most the time I spend on these forums is at work.

I watched the vids on this last night.
I actually find xenos take on how he does dungeons hilarious and I may apply it myself (the pulling ahead and dying on purpose for the group to keep moving forward).

[Thurmnmurmn]

If this was in a random lvling dungeon I would agree. Let the tank pull at whatever speed they want.
But this was in an expert roulette. It's max LVL content. If you can't grasp the basics of your class at that point, that's not my or anyone else's problem.
And it's not like tanking is hard. Turn on stance and hit your aoe button. You don't even need to combo it if you don't want to.