SE: Please enable echo way earlier on savage tier...

[Colt47]

This is literally a running joke at this point that there is no echo going for savage. If they are abandoning echo as a way to ease difficulty then they need to figure out what to do when they make a tier too difficult.

People who are struggling on Anabesios p12s p1 and p2 are not lacking in skill right now, it's a matter of just too many mechanics to deal with to consistently clear it and it was the same way with p10s when it was fresh: people either got blocked by it because of losing people going into harrowing hell or got past it.

Telling people that there was a screw up in difficulty is great: but taking no action to resolve the problem is saying the complete opposite. I don't even know if echo would fix the problems completely, but at least it would increase the number of times groups can consistently get to p2.

[Volgia]

I don't understand, you want savage to be easier a patch after it was released? P12S p1 and p2 aren't hard to do if you have a consistent amount of players dancing through the mechs. If you're doing it in PF you will struggle with consistency and early disbands, and trying again with another draw-of-the-luck players. I haven't beaten it cuz I don't have a static or can't beat my head against that wall for long periods of time.

Savage and harder content isn't content that beatable by everyone and it honestly shouldn't be. Now there's another argument to be made about a doorboss being annoying to get to the second phase, but bringing the echo would skip Superchain 2A, or even UAV2, like I wouldn't want that.

[Menriq]

People who are struggling on Anabesios p12s p1 and p2 are not lacking in skill right now, it's a matter of just too many mechanics to deal with to consistently clear it

I feel like this a contradictory statement. If no one was clearing at all, this might be a true statement. However, with being able to upgrade gear now outside of savage, the undergeared reason is pretty much moot. There are several body checks, and even with echo, you aren't going to skip them all.

I know it's unrelated, but I do find this interesting that here, a request is being made to skip mechanics, and yet there is an active thread wanting other content to be synced so as to not skip mechanics (and yes, I know that thread is not about savage).

[Colt47]

I feel like this a contradictory statement. If no one was clearing at all, this might be a true statement. However, with being able to upgrade gear now outside of savage, the undergeared reason is pretty much moot. There are several body checks, and even with echo, you aren't going to skip them all.

I know it's unrelated, but I do find this interesting that here, a request is being made to skip mechanics, and yet there is an active thread wanting other content to be synced so as to not skip mechanics (and yes, I know that thread is not about savage).

It's two different problems. One side wants to have the option to be able to do hard content as it was on day one because they want to be able to engage in it at a point other than the launch of the content. The less niche side of it want to have proper scaling so that people aren't wasting well over 200+ hours trying to clear a piece of content that is past it's prime. The savage tier was not released in 6.5, it was released in 6.4 back in May. This several months after it dropped and the total hours spent that it usually should take to clear a savage is 120-144 hours. Savage can be frustrating but this isn't necessarily a problem with the people doing it right now. Unfortunately the way they built these savage fights makes them a complete trainwreck in any kind of method for scaling them properly to more than one audience. The right answer is to engage the systems to make the fight easier now even if it breaks parts of it because the ones who are doing it for challenge sake already cleared it two or three months back.

[Caro178]

What running joke? I have never heard this running joke. The only request I see come up time and again in my raiding circles is for loot to be unlocked earlier, but loot unlock and Echo are entirely separate content buffs.

As a primary point I want to mention Echo is not even added to all savage raid tiers when they are still "on content". That boon is rewarded only to the final tier of each expansion as a final boost to encourage engagement from players who want the rewards but find savage a bit too difficult when it is fresh off the press. It's basically a final ditch effort to breathe life into the content and make it appealing to a slightly less skilled or less time invested echelon of players. The first two raid tiers of an expansion's life cycle only receive the echo buff after they are "off content" (after they have already been replaced by a new tier) and when the gear is already outdated.

Second paragraph of the first post made me chuckle a little because it basically reads "people who are struggling on Anabaesios 12 are not lacking skill, the fight is just too hard". Seeing as people have been clearing the fight since June when it came out how is this not a skill problem? P12 is actually one of the easier final floors they have released in a while and I think many raiders like me would agree. There is no screw up in difficulty. The DPS checks are incredibly lenient and the hardest mechanic out of both fights is probably Superchain 1 which is very early into the first phase. Both phases of P8S were more difficult than P12S.

Echo is not something that should be added while the content is current. I finished farming my stuff months and months ago and I still feel this way. People who didn't clear the tier in the first month also need time to farm out the rewards they want while the content is still the intended difficulty. Savage, when it's new, is made players who enjoy the challenge. Getting your loot while the content is still hard should not be a reward exclusive to those who cleared when it was brand spanking new. Your average static probably isn't even done farming the final floor by week 16. There needs to be a substantial period where the content remains at the base difficulty because the types of players who actually interact with it are at their most active during this period.

TLDR savage is made for people who enjoy the challenge and should remain challenging for an extended period of time. If you don't like this element of savage raiding then the content is not for you and therefore it should not be designed to cater to your requests.

[ZiraZ]

You can already get 660 ilvl just from tomes, hunts and alliance raids.
If you are struggling on P12S P1 and p2 despite having a group in full 660 then you are absolutely lacking in skill.
They should probably remove loot lockout a lot sooner though, just for alts job gearing.

[OgruMogru]

They should probably remove loot lockout a lot sooner though, just for alts job gearing.

Absolutely this! I'm of the opinion that the state of raiding and PF in general would be a lot healthier if they removed the loot restriction sooner, or tweaked the way it works from the start. As it is now players get their 1 weekly clear and then are completely discouraged from going back into PF and reclearing because you're gonna be screwing over other people's chance at loot. It means the more capable players slowly get screened out of the PF pool because everyone wants a shot at 2 chests. I wish they would rework the loot for savage to function like 24 mans. You get the book for first clear guaranteed and you get 1 piece of loot per week per floor. Everyone takes 8 weeks to get all the drops and it means you can re-enter content to help or practice without screwing over everyone else by affecting *their* loot for the week.

[Jeeqbit]

This is literally a running joke at this point that there is no echo going for savage. If they are abandoning echo as a way to ease difficulty then they need to figure out what to do when they make a tier too difficult.

You will literally get "Epic Echo" in the next expansion, regardless. Item level will increase. It will be alright.

People who are struggling on Anabesios p12s p1 and p2 are not lacking in skill right now

...yes, they are. If someone needs The Echo because it's too hard, that is literally because of a lack of skill, unless they have some sort of disability.

Telling people that there was a screw up in difficulty is great: but taking no action to resolve the problem is saying the complete opposite.

They have not said there was a screw up in difficulty, though. They test the content before they release it and Yoshi-P does personal checks of it and if he doesn't like it, he asks them to change it or redo it.

I don't even know if echo would fix the problems completely, but at least it would increase the number of times groups can consistently get to p2.

Echo should not be there until the next tier at the earliest and fortunately, that is how it seems to be.

[Caro178]

You will literally get "Epic Echo" in the next expansion, regardless. Item level will increase. It will be alright.

Right? This thread is just wildly missing the mark from the "it's not a skill issue, the fight is just too hard" justification to the overall complaint about not having echo yet when the whole raid tier will have the echo buff sometime post holiday season and will remain in that state until Dawntrail where will receive an even bigger echo buff. P12S is going to have echo for half a year and somehow that's still not long enough?

Only one fight this expansion was ever commented on fairly as being too hard, and it wasn't because of mechanics. P8S had an overtuned dps check which was rectified very quickly. P12S's dps check is the most lenient of any final floor I've done, probably as a safety net after what happened with Abyssos.

[Colt47]

You will literally get "Epic Echo" in the next expansion, regardless. Item level will increase. It will be alright.

...yes, they are. If someone needs The Echo because it's too hard, that is literally because of a lack of skill, unless they have some sort of disability.

They have not said there was a screw up in difficulty, though. They test the content before they release it and Yoshi-P does personal checks of it and if he doesn't like it, he asks them to change it or redo it.

Echo should not be there until the next tier at the earliest and fortunately, that is how it seems to be.

Waiting until next expansion is pointless when people are trying to do the content now. It's not about who is better or not at this point, people are smacking themselves against a wall way too long on content that has been around for several months. People who wanted this stuff done for the merit of saying they did the hard content already cleared it on month 4 back in Mid September. I was a big supporter of the idea that we can wait for content to cycle out and then do it when it is no longer current, but that is not the same thing as having your current content scale so that people complete the content in a reasonable time. 10% echo wont help against body checks but it will make it so people can more consistently get to where they need to in order to progress.

As for why "this is not a skill issue", for one: I'm saying that because saying it is "a skill issue" implies that the one writing that knows what is going on in the other persons life. It's also implying that people who have not cleared the content yet are somehow inferior in their capabilities of learning over those who did, without considering how much time they have to study, what hours they are engaging in the content in, and how often they can afford to meet up. Someone who is doing this during the late hours of the day and only has an hour at best to study before going to a savage is going to take longer than someone going in from the morning and taking multiple days off from work to complete it. IMO if players are still dying to p12s on month 7 when on almost all other tiers prior to this, people generally were able to clear month 6 or sooner, there's kind of a problem.

Likewise, I've ran into a disagreement on what skill means in terms of these conversations a lot. If the definition of skill is someone doing the fight well, most of the people are doing the parts of the fight they have learned fine, the reason they are getting blocked is the fact that a single person in the group so much as messing up can chain kill the party. With 8 people that means anyone who makes a mistake even if they are just tired is going to result in the entire group being held back. If a person can execute all mechanics correctly 7/8 times in p12s p1, how is that not skilled? if you got 8 people in a group and each of them has that success to failure rate, the entire group could easily not clear p12s p1 on a night to get to phase 2. That and confusion over where someone should be standing because people were positioned differently on the prior night also factors into this. Is it a skill issue if someone who has been group 1 melee has to get shifted to group 2 for melee on a fight and the group wipes because of it? Probably not, that is more of an organization issue.

To put it simply: A skill is something that is applied to multiple areas. Learning a savage fight is reading a picture book and remembering every single picture in it, to the point you can flip instantly to the right page when needed. Nothing carries over to anything else outside of that one thing since each savage fight is its own book. Hence, someone can learn a savage fight, but they aren't suddenly becoming "more skilled" at savage in general. Even DPS in these fights are linked to the learning of the fight and not to someone's skill at playing the game in a broad sense.