How would you rate Tank DPS rotations/abilities?

[Renathras]

Not "at least we aren't Healers", but the Tanks themselves.

Do you find your rotation consistently thrilling and exciting, keeping you on the edge of your seat through entire encounters, or do you find it kind of bland and boring? Or do you not really care much about being a "Blue DPS" and see them more as just utilitarian things to do during downtime?

Do you enjoy your burst phases and 2 min meta, or 1 minute mini-burst (or GNB's 30 sec "micro-burst") spikes in activity?

Do you think Tanks should have more of a DPS focus and more DPS actions going forward, or more actions related to threat, boss/add management and positioning, and defense going forward?

Thank you for your time.

[Rithy255]

I think Tank rotation should be a important factor going forward as current rotations kind of feel underwhelming I think DRK is a good example of what not to do on a tank, 1,2,3 with one heavy burst instead of having a consistent fun rotation with weaving throughout your gameplay, but it shouldn't be the only focus I think party wides and defensive management should play a more big focus going forward as well.

I think Tanks would fit this DPS/support hybrid pretty well as that seems the current direction going forward, But they need to lean more into that identity.

[Zairava]

DRK is absolutely insulting regarding its rotation and abilities. No synergy, no interactions, MP management might as well be non existent, Darkside is maintained effortlessly to the point it's completely forgettable, as well as Living Shadow outside of "I need to press this every 2 minutes" which extends to literally every other offensive ability outside of its 1-2-3 and occasional bloodspiller. I've never seen more boring downtime in any videogame in my entire life outside of healing downtime in this same game which is an entirely separate discussion. Even Warrior has more engaging downtime (if slightly) and it's borderline the easiest job in the game to play.

I do think our current defensive kits (outside of DRK) are too potent but that's the absolute least of my concerns regarding the tanks. (except you Shake it Off, I hope you get nerfed back to Shadowbringers).

They need to look at the offensive kits more by far, we already fit the hybrid as Rithy stated, but they are mind-numbingly boring to play outside of Gunbreaker, which only passes because it has a mini-burst every 30s.

[Kabooa]

Warrior 1/10. This is not only what we should avoid for the job itself, but also any other job. No rotational complexity, no engagement. The only saving grace is that if you want the invincible power fantasy, Warrior delivers it in spades.

Dark Knight 3/10. It has the bones for something that could be great here, but they didn't do it in EW and probably won't do it for Dawntrail. Expanding on the Living Shadow theme not only for the window itself but for other actions are such easy lay ups, but they don't want to do anything "wacky" that the players would complain about, in their own words.

Paladin 3/10. Again, it has the bones for something here. Moving more towards state-based action priority could be good if they add more spells to use with Divine Might, and in turn those spells empower Sword/Shield skills. "I attack to cast spells, and I cast spells to enhance my attacks."

Gunbreaker 7/10. Probably the only tank that has good feeling buttons. Suffers a little from being so tightly defined that expanding the kit is tricky.

[Rithy255]

My rating on current Rotations would be
War 3/10, Boring only real thing that I like about it is the second combo. I'm fine with this being the boring tank, just dislike its aoe and healing sustain more then rotation issues... I guess add more to gauge.
Pld 5/10, pretty Boring but has some interesting things like ranged uptime or holding spirits for sustain... they really need to make goring blade do something else, cutdown on the atonements, I'd argue for more combos on PLD, I'm honestly just hoping they adjust its rotation a bit more and this could easily move up (Shb PLD = 9/10)
DRK 1/10, Somehow more boring then warrior but also feels clunky and annoying to use in burst. I rather it had more consistent OGCD usage, expand its combos... or just do something with this job.
GNB 8/10, generally fun I don't have any issues with it, it has a lot of weaving but not all of that is in your burst, I think this job feels the most polished for tanks.

[Zairava]

Guess I'll throw in my $0.02 and put my ratings down.

DRK 3/10, not even the busy bursts are enough to save its current abomination of a state from my wrath. I've already said my piece that I would put here in my original reply to the thread. The only reason why this ranks 1 higher than WAR is because of its bursts. If they weren't busy it would've stayed at a 1/10 like it did before I edited this post.
WAR 2/10, incredibly boring but it has a second combo ender, which is why it's at 2/10 and not 1/10. If they want to keep it simple that's...fine, I guess?, but it's missing a lot of its potential staying as it is currently. Somehow even Shadowbringers Warrior felt slightly better than its current form.
PLD 5/10, boring, if Goring Blade kept the DoT it would sit comfortably around a 7 imo, the one other thing holding it back is that it's the same exact burst every minute.
GNB 7/10, I don't have many issues with GNB, it's generally fun in my opinion thanks to it having a mini burst every 30s. It's the best designed tank since Shadowbringers.

[Absurdity]

I've never seen more boring downtime in any videogame in my entire life outside of healing downtime in this same game which is an entirely separate discussion. Even Warrior has more engaging downtime (if slightly) and it's borderline the easiest job in the game to play.

I'd say it depends on what you find more "exciting", occasionally refreshing Eye on Warrior or spamming every oGCD you have every 2 minutes. They're equally as mindnumbingly boring, just in slightly different ways.


As for my ranking:
WAR 2/10, this job is a dumpster fire, bafflingly simplistic and boring to the point of actually becoming harder because you get distracted by everything else around you being more interesting than actually playing it. Would I rate this job higher if I had no prior experience with the job? Maybe, but unfortunately I played previous iterations and all of them had more nuance and engaging gameplay than this current travesty.

DRK 3/10, equally as bad as WAR but the slightly more hectic burst windows barely beat out hitting Fell Cleave and BIGGER FELL CLEAVE ad nauseum every minute.

PLD ?/10, I have not played the job enough after the rework to really give an opinion on it, but it certainly doesn't feel all that exciting to play from the short amount of time I've had with it.

GNB 6/10, by far the best out of the bunch but that doesn't mean much. I would've given it a 7/10 before Abyssos but the current 2.5 GCD playstyle where you constantly need to do a forced 2-cart burst and making Bloodfest another boring 2-minute cooldown simply feels awful to play to me. I would've easily given the job an 8 or 9/10 in Shadowbringers, I think outside of Heart of Corundum every addition with Endwalker has actually made the job worse.


Edit: These ratings are entirely based on their offensive gameplay, a.i. their damage rotation. I do not rate the tanks according to their defensives because those are, simply put, quite boring. Since they have become so uniform since Shadowbringers and mostly boil down to "Reduce damage taken by X% for Y seconds" they are functional, do their job, but aren't anything to get excited about or really change up how you use each individual ability.

[Espon]

I only really play Paladin and Warrior because I enjoy their rotations more than Dark Knight and Gunbreaker.

I'm likely in the minority but I feel that having a complex rotation doesn't make the game more fun for me. It may be dull when hitting a target dummy, but I tend to start messing things up during a boss fight when I need to focus on both what's happening during the encounter and managing my own abilities. It's probably why I tend to gravitate towards jobs that others find are too simplistic (summoner).

The game can do away with the 2-minute burst meta, I rather jobs manage their own buffs instead of trying to line everything up every 2 minutes. The only time in an encounter that everyone should be unloading their burst at the same time is on the pull.

Defensive cooldowns might be too strong, but I feel this is more of a core issue with the game itself that would require a complete rebalancing of not just tanks but for healers and how bosses dish out damage as well. As it currently stands, tanks just aren't threatened outside of tankbusters and failing 1-shot mechanics. This problem also greatly affects healers, forcing them to deal damage far more than they need to heal.

[Renathras]

I was curious what other people's answers would be. But now that I've seen how everyone is rating them, it's got me wondering how I would...

PLD - I liked old PLD okay, and I like new PLD. I really like how flexible the rotation feels, mostly. I can move Atonements and Holy Spirit around, and it doesn't have that weird Atonement drop thing that always felt odd to me. On the other hand, FoF and Requiescat being separate abilities just makes no sense at this point, and Goring seems...vestigial. Like they didn't want to just out and remove the button/animation, but it brings nothing useful to the table other than being an easy tuning knob if they want PLD's burst damage to go up or down some (it's a consistent thing, since it will basically always be used in burst unlike 1-2-3-4-4-4-5 which players can move around more and might have reasons to do so, especially Royal/Atonement), and it's not as big a hit as Confet/Swords. But outside of "we wanted to keep the animation", it seems there's little reason for it, and "easier tuning" doesn't sound great as a reason, not to mention PLD's overall button bloat as it is. While the rotation IS simple, it's also got room for moving things around, which I really do think is a plus, even if that mostly comes down to using HS for either 3-4 sec disengages or ensuring you get at least one in FoF windows. And, at least for my part, the big attacks are pretty satisfying. And as much as I think Goring is kind of just...there...I still love the animation for it (I feel like they should just have Royal upgrade to Goring just because the animation is so much better...) 6.5/10? Nothing super amazing to write home about, but gets the job done, but also has a bit more clunk and weirdness that prevents it being a 7.

WAR - I really am not sure about WAR. In theory, there's some optimization with Infuriate and it being a moving target based on how many Fell Cleaves you use, but in practice, this is just going to be normalized since you should always generate the same amount of gauge in general over time, and spend it to prevent overcapping. So in practice, it's just as if Infuriate had a shorter CD in general as opposed to some big brain "moving CD" that you would adapt to on the fly or have meaningful gameplay around. Prevent it from overcapping. That's basically the gameplay. Use it when there's 5-10 seconds left on the second charge coming off CD unless you're right on top of a burst window and Inner Release coming off CD. And, of course, you just dump everything into the burst phase and then move on with life. It has a -4 combo ender, and that stacks to 60 seconds making it flexible as to when you reapply it, so I guess there's some play there, though it isn't really...advanced. It's not terrible, just very utilitarian overall. Though I DO like that the core rotation is established by level 50 (meaning syncing keeps most of the feel and cadence of the level cap gameplay, NOT something true of all the Tanks...). I dunno, 5-6/10? Does what it needs to do, isn't terrible, but doesn't go out of its way to do more.

DRK - I can't really say since I've only leveled it to 80 for quests, and that just recently. It seems like...a more clunky WAR, though. So if I gave WAR a 5-6/10, then I suppose DRK would be 4-5/10. I like some of the animations, but the play seems to take the more boring parts of WAR and combine them with some clunk which defeats the purpose of having a simple and utilitarian rotation to begin with. I'm not even sure why DRK is trying to be a WAR clone in the first place...

GNB - On the one hand, sometimes it feels a little clunky, and I'm not sure why we bothered to get another powder gauge charge if there's no case you ever do 3x 1 charge abilities. You use two on DD then you get in a Gnashing and Burst, but that's all that fits in No Mercy. It seems we could still just have two and have Double Down only cost 1. The rotation would be identical. Or give us 3 and have DD cost only 1, which would actually mean more Burst Strikes. But...we don't have that. Continuation, though, feels really good in general, and it's nice we have one for Burst Strike now, too, even if it can make defensive weaves a bit tighter. It's also nice that it has something to do at the 30 sec marks which other Tanks do not. While the other Tanks generally have a oGCD (or two) to use then, GNB actually gets a mini-burst with an extra side-combo. It'd be like if PLD's Goring and Confetior had 30 sec CDs (but you only got Swords when using Confetior WHILE under FoF/Req), or if WAR got a Primal Rend every 30 sec. It gives something that breaks up the combo nicely from the filler. And I don't know about others, but the 1/2/3 charge gauge feels better to me than all those Jobs that have 0-100 gauges where EVERYTHING USING THEM uses exactly 50, making it a 2 charge gauge with extra steps to fill in weird increments. GNB's, on the other hand, is both easy to track and easy to understand, while giving the player that side thing to juggle, ensuring you have a charge every 30 sec for Gnashing, 3 at 1 min marks for Gnashing+DD, but also is easy to see when you're about to finish a 1-2-3 combo and overcap so you can blow a Burst Strike before finishing the combo. And Bloodfest, despite basically being a 2 min CD now, at least makes sense with the rotation and burst, what it's supposed to do, and how to use it, and the extra Burst Strikes + Continuation feel pretty nice to press. Double Down, for my issues with it (there's also that crit variance thing), just FEELS good; they nailed the VFX on it, imo. It just feels really good in general to execute. It's not quite a 10/10 because there's still a little weirdness and clunk, and I still have no idea why Sonic Break even exists other than, like Gnashing, I suspect as a tuning knob. But it generally feels good, it changes up enough to be interesting, and the gauge is simultaneously easier to manage and has more going on with it to make it interesting. I'd give it a 8-9/10.

I am with Espon in that I do like simple things. Though oddly, I find PLD easier than WAR. Not having to even think about the upkeep buff and just making my rotation 3-1-2-4/5-4/5-4/5-4/5-3 means I don't have to really think too much and have a HS at my fingertips basically any time I need one, and PLD and WAR both have a 1 min burst to track, and PLD's seems easier to me to execute, not to mention how much of it can be done at range even for bosses that have a lot of movement or disengages at 2 min marks to screw with other Melee/Tank Jobs, PLD can just go "lol, magic swords go brr" and carry on like it's nothing or with VERY minor modifications. If I extend this to include the defensive/Tank abilities, PLD just feels really good overall, and has the most party utility.

...but I also think GNB feels pretty good to play and execute.

WAR I think is Shrodinger's Easy Job, as it both has more going on than it seems, but it's also irrelevant and so not any harder to play/execute at the same time. It's...odd. But while bare bones, it's also very utilitarian, having everything it needs. WAR is the Archon Loaf of the Tanks, so to speak.

And DRK...is probably the Tank Job most in need of SOME kind of rework. "WAR but clunkier" isn't a great identity.

[KenZentra]

So I play a ton of WAR. I like how simple it is, and I do think there needs to be a simple option available. That being said, WAR rotation sucks and its kinda the baseline in my eyes on every tank's rotation.

Build up resource. (in this case Beast Gauge, but its also GNB Charges and DRK Meter)
Deal Extra Damage using Hard hitting action(s) with resource. (Fell Cleave, Bloodspiller, Gnashing Fang Combo/Burst Strike)
Use minute (or so) cooldown that gives access to burst damage. (FoF and/or Requiescat, Inner Release, Delirium, Bloodfest & Double Down)
Weave in dashes at melee range for free extra damage.
Repeat forever.

Its really dull.

I feel like I should mention too, that (aside from The Blackest Night) all of your mitigation abilities are like a pocket of stuff you use separate from the rest of your kit. I mean one of them, Rampart, is given to every tank. Shadow Wall, Sentinel, Nebubla, Vengenace (aside from the thorns effect) are all the same ability, Reduce damage taken. Wow, so deep. Vengance used to atleast combo well with Bloodbath with it healing off the thorns effect, which was great for Wall to Wall pulls by refunding some of the damage taken, but now we have Bloodwhetting which does either is pretty nice, but completely busted in dungeons. Just feel like there needs to be more interconnectivity throughout all of the kit, and rewarding tanks with more mitigation before rewarding more damage.

Also, I really think doing your rotation correctly should reward more mitigation, not damage. Not that we cant have burst abilities, thats all well and good, but I feel like doing your rotation should be rewarding you with what your role is supposed to do, and that is taking and mitigating damage.

Edit: Btw, I dont really want them to be super complex when it comes to doing a rotation necessarily, but a lot of their kits is just building toward doing big damage (for tanks), while the actual tank abilities are just slapped on. Making tanks (as they are now) just simple DPS with big HP pools and mits in their pockets.