Disruptive Frontline Gameplay

[Scintilla]

As Scintilla notes, people are trying to take counter-measures, and honestly I find that quite interesting.

I very much wish there was some kind of consistent countermeasure. So far the best I've seen is both random alliances working together, in which the objective is no longer 'win the FL' but becomes 'stop the premade winning the FL'.

MNK stun/knockback is nice vs DRKs using their LB on cliff edges or the Onsal podium but it's something of an opportunistic attack, relying on the DRK being in a good position and there being few healers around to support them.

SAM LB might be taken advantage of against DRK/DRG/DRG/DRG premades, using the Chiten buff and then Guard as soon as you see the marked DRK coming, allowing yourself to be drawn into the voke and attacks, before using your LB to try to instantly kill one of the BH5 DRGs before they escape. That said, it doesn't remotely stop them and they'll quickly build that BH again. The cooldown is very long so it isn't something which can be spammed. It is also useless against any premade team which uses RPR, as obviously, without Guard you will die to the LBs before being able to use your own LB.

Forming your own team of RPRs and chaining your LBs may be another option: RPR LB is unavoidable (even applying to DRGs in their LB hide, I believe) and cooldown is very quick. Perhaps chaining these Hysteria debuffs might be enough to enable the DRGs to waste their LBs. That said, such an approach would require your own coordinated premade to be formed and I still strongly believe that having your own premade party should never be obligatory to be able to play FLs competitively.

I haven't tried SGE in PvP myself, but I have considered it when trying to think of ways to combat premades. SGE LB offers invincibility and you don't need to be directly stood within your group to use it. But the buff only lasts for a very short time (5-seconds?) and the CD is incredibly long. Ideally, multiple SGE or an AST would be needed to make it a remotely credible option (again - forming your own premade should never be obligatory). Also, reading the skill description it seems that any enemies within the LB area get a DoT which also allows them to attack the protected players. Whether this would work against DRGs if they cast their LB outside the buff but actually use it inside, I'm not sure. Never tried it.
The protective area can be moved to a new location after initial casting, so whether you would be able to place it over your team to give your team the invincibility buff and then quickly move it to a new location far away to prevent the premade getting the DoT allowing attacks, I'm not sure. The duration is only 5-seconds long so timing would be crucial. I haven't tried it yet personally, and I presume there is some obvious downfall that I'm overlooking, otherwise it would be more widely used.

[IDontPetLalas]

There are actually two parallel threads here, which I think is confusing the debate. Some hold that current FL problems stem simply from a job balance issue, others that the toxin is premades. I take the second position, based on my experience, with the caveat that I think the current jobs magnify the efficacy of a premade.

As I've acknowledged previously, I may be missing something fundamental due to unconscious biases from PvP in other MMOs I've played. That said, the idea of mixing multi-player sub-teams with the potential of voice comms with solo players is, to me, so incredibly daft I can't imagine how it ever arose in the first place. More importantly, perhaps, there is a growing perception (on Aether) that the outcome of the match is basically determined from the outset when one of the high-quality premades is on the field.

As Scintilla notes, people are trying to take counter-measures, and honestly I find that quite interesting. I'm more disturbed by the mindset of the individuals in these premades, as evidenced by the DM Doozer shared. It's borderline sociopathic.

I do believe that your prior experience in other PvP games has some bearing on this, and perhaps you should consider that a game that is designed at the outset with PvP at its core - such as EvE- is not going to include the same functionality, nor the same audience- as FFXIV? While I haven't been playing FFXIV since the start, from prior discussion my understanding is that the premade incorporation has been significantly reduced.

I don't find it "daft" in the context of this game, in a casual, non-ranked, PvP mode, that we do have a small number of people who can queue together. I have agreed with what Aravell has been saying as well- hence when Scintilla mentioned "If they run at you, the vast majority of your team will run"- mark them, and why I suggested shot-calling, using someone who is familiar with their tactics.

Also, calling them "sociopathic"-here's an often used definition " a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience." So you've diagnosed this from a short DM that Doozer initiated from losing against a premade that someone dared organize, and basically said "thanks for the easy wins, hope to see you again"? Again, personally I wouldn't say what they said, but I've seen worse in other games and it wasn't considered "sociopathic".

[IDontPetLalas]

You mentioned an FL guide for new players. I'm curious, what would you include in this guide which would be so profound that it would make premades suddenly survivable?

snip

I'm not sure this is coming from. My point regarding tutorials was related to a comment regarding new players.


Perhaps you have never met someone who has entered their first FL without knowing how what the purpose of each match is, and what the general objectives are, or how the job skills change in PvP, or that it is a good idea to keep their map open? If so- you're fortunate.

I'm not a game designer, however a tutorial could possibly use NPCs to simulate a short match, and allow someone to practise all of the above.

If you think that I will now say " and now you're ready to beat the best premade', you're sadly mistaken. If you think that I will say " you have an advantage over a premade on voice comm" you would also be mistaken or 'you are the equal of a veteran PvPer" you would also have the wrong impression.

[Scintilla]

hence when Scintilla mentioned "If they run at you, the vast majority of your team will run"- mark them, and why I suggested shot-calling, using someone who is familiar with their tactics.

I don't quite see what this has to do with shot-calling? Yes, if they run at you, many of your team will begin to run, those who don't likely haven't noticed the DRK incoming. But 'run' is not a solution. If you're just going to run every time the premade alliance comes near you, you're handing them the win just the same as if you'd been dragged into the attacks. So, if you mean to just mark the DRK and shot-call to run, you aren't fixing the problem in the slightest. You're still just handing them the win. Knowing their approach and tactics doesn't particularly help when there is currently very little that can be done to counter them.

Perhaps you have never met someone who has entered their first FL without knowing how what the purpose of each match is, and what the general objectives are, or how the job skills change in PvP, or that it is a good idea to keep their map open? If so- you're fortunate.

Naturally, there's often new or inexperienced players in FLs. Some will openly acknowledge it and will ask for advice or clarification, whilst many will not say anything at all: perhaps just not wanting to or maybe a little anxiety about how this will be received by the rest of their team. A guide or tutorial may help these newer players feel more aware of what's happening in FLs without having to openly admit to their team that they are new (I've never seen it taken badly by team members, but with the toxic environment that PvP creates in other games, it wouldn't be surprising if that remains a concern of some new players), but it still doesn't help resolve the imbalance created by premades.

[IDontPetLalas]

I don't quite see what this has to do with shot-calling? Yes, if they run at you, many of your team will begin to run, those who don't likely haven't noticed the DRK incoming. But 'run' is not a solution. If you're just going to run every time the premade alliance comes near you, you're handing them the win just the same as if you'd been dragged into the attacks. So, if you mean to just mark the DRK and shot-call to run, you aren't fixing the problem in the slightest. You're still just handing them the win. Knowing their approach and tactics doesn't particularly help when there is currently very little that can be done to counter them.




Naturally, there's often new or inexperienced players in FLs. Some will openly acknowledge it and will ask for advice or clarification, whilst many will not say anything at all: perhaps just not wanting to or maybe a little anxiety about how this will be received by the rest of their team. A guide or tutorial may help these newer players feel more aware of what's happening in FLs without having to openly admit to their team that they are new (I've never seen it taken badly by team members, but with the toxic environment that PvP creates in other games, it wouldn't be surprising if that remains a concern of some new players), but it still doesn't help resolve the imbalance created by premades.

I'm sorry- where did I say that you should run? I'm genuinely puzzled. I never said to run from what is not even what you are now exaggerating as a premade "alliance", and what is factually several pre-made people. You mark people for priority, you need to focus them them down. So, I never said "So, if you mean to just mark the DRK and shot-call to run" - if that's what you concluded, then no wonder that you've concluded that "premades are a problem', and I can understand why we disagree on that point. What I have said , a few times in this thread, is that several jobs with AOE skills should have their potencies adjusted for FL. that could potentially help with this issue, other than that- I wouldn't ask for the dev team to stop people from queuing with a few friends.

However, I'm not going to engage in pages of discussion when once again you conclude that "Knowing their approach and tactics doesn't particularly help when there is currently very little that can be done to counter them", you may view that as being realistic, however I view that as being defeatist - and essentially if you go in with that attitude, you've already lost.

[Mawlzy]

Also, calling them "sociopathic"-here's an often used definition " a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience." So you've diagnosed this from a short DM that Doozer initiated from losing against a premade that someone dared organize, and basically said "thanks for the easy wins, hope to see you again"? Again, personally I wouldn't say what they said, but I've seen worse in other games and it wasn't considered "sociopathic".

That was a little hyperbolic, I grant you, and was more motivated by the subsequent mention of a Discord that organizes a premade with a "cry more salt" channel, in which comments made by players thoroughly PO'd with the premade are recorded.

[Scintilla]

I'm sorry- where did I say that you should run? I'm genuinely puzzled.

I was rather confused by your last reply and thought that was what you meant. It seems that's not the case.

you are now exaggerating as a premade "alliance", and what is factually several pre-made people.

I thought my meaning was clear, despite a small grammatical error: "premade's alliance". If you want to be specific, it's very unlikely to have any more than 4 players in a premade as the maximum party you can queue with is a light party.

You mark people for priority, you need to focus them them down

I'm afraid we still disagree. "just focus them down"... now why didn't we think of that?!
You believe people have just been ignoring them and focusing others? Good luck focusing them down when a huge proportion of your alliance are dead following their attacks.

You can stay, stand your ground and try to focus them down, in which case you will be dragged into the vokes, Guard removed, and killed by LBs
You can run to try to avoid their attacks, but then you're surrendering the objective without any kind of fight. Return to try and retake it and you're faced with the same problem again.

"Just focus them down" is no more a realistic solution than "Just use Guard". You don't get time to. The first attack is most likely to be successful given that the vast majority of the alliance won't be looking out for a premade, so all will be unprepared for it (unless you know your premade so well that you can recognize the DRK purely from how their character looks, and even that can be hard to see in the chaos of FL). That first successful attack alone will give them a notable BH advantage. There is not the opportunity to focus them down before getting dragged into the vokes. You either stay and die or run and give them the objective. The only solution I have seen so far is for both random alliances to focus them down together, but my arguments on this are clear in my previous posts.

I view that as being defeatist - and essentially if you go in with that attitude, you've already lost.

Defeatist would be "just die to them and give them the win, it's going to happen anyway. Lets get it over with". Highlighting an issue and the magnitude of it is not defeatist. I am simply contributing to the discussion, recounting the realism of my own experiences -an experience which many here seem to have shared. I'm not sure how much FL you play, but perhaps it would be worth trying FL in these servers which so many have had bad experiences from, rather than attempting to shut down discussion with anyone who argues that such a matter cannot be fixed without changes to the current FL system by labelling their points as 'defeatist'.

[IDontPetLalas]

I was rather confused by your last reply and thought that was what you meant. It seems that's not the case.



I thought my meaning was clear, despite a small grammatical error: "premade's alliance". If you want to be specific, it's very unlikely to have any more than 4 players in a premade as the maximum party you can queue with is a light party.



I'm afraid we still disagree. "just focus them down"... now why didn't we think of that?!
snip

Considering that some of the comments come from the same data center that I'm from, and I enter daily on that data center- I don't see that as an issue, and I may well have encountered that premade BUT I typically queue a couple of times, at most, a day. In addition- as I've been making a number of suggestions , I'm hardly shutting down any discussion - if you don't agree with me or don't want to hear what I've proposed as possible changes that's completely different, which is also why what you see as a "small grammatical error" - isn't small, it is key to the issue. We are talking about a light party and not a full pre-made alliance queuing against 2 random alliances.

However ditto

[Mawlzy]

I think we've passed the point of diminishing returns on this discussion, although overall I've found it extremely useful. Thanks to all who shared their views. I did want to make one last contribution, however.

I just queued in to FL and immediately one of the premade leaders/shot callers popped up in chat. We won easily, with 2nd on about 1200 and 3rd sub-1000 (Shatter).

IMO the assists stat is the one that best reflects how overpowered a team led by a coordinated premade can be. So I ordered the K/D/A by A. The first 21 players in assists were all from our team. I apologize I didn't get a screenshot; I was still gawping at the data when I timed out of the instance.

For me the "fight" (a.k.a. shooting fish in a barrel) was completely uninteresting. I doubt the other two teams liked it at all. And so I quit FL and came here to whine about it.

Good luck, everyone. Hope to see you on a (level) battlefield.

Jessa The Pink Paladin

[Scintilla]

I may well have encountered that premade BUT I typically queue a couple of times, at most, a day.

If you encounter a premade, you'll know you encountered a premade. If it's a 'maybe', it's likely just a strong, well-coordinated random team. Though playing a couple of times a day at the very most may go some way to explain why you've been fortunate with your experiences so far.

Such groups were far more prevalent a while ago, since then I have seen them less. Still very regularly, but not remotely to the same frequency as I did back then. It was particularly frustrating for me at the time as I was finishing the Seal Rock achievement on my alt to use the Field Commander's coat for a glamour, and there was the same premade team in every single match, every day. This was quite a long while ago, so whether there was some kind of event on at that time which rewarded FL matches, such as the Moogle Treasure Trove, I can't remember.

I enjoy PvP and don't want to see people stop playing it because of the issues caused by premades. We don't seem to be at that stage quite yet (at least, not on my own DC), but if left to continue we could well reach that point eventually. As I tend to play FLs with friends, I would be a little sad if the ability to queue as a party was removed and I hope that there would be some other solution. But, if it comes to that being the only solution to this issue, I would accept it.