Disruptive Frontline Gameplay

[AriannaStormwake]

just dont allow premades to queue against pugs all i see is lb stacking stun chains and tryharding not real skill from those guys
only they get to have fun because pugs who cant fight back(due to drk/drg/ast+war grip lb chains and stuns) are easy kills/easy points and easy wins

i already got my 3 garo mounts and the wins for using a makai title and it was worth grinding the wins
but im sure those drk/drg guys who queue up and got a macro to raid lead groups to victory+salted earth macro already have those achievements/mounts?

or rather salted earth(salt and darkness bind aswell not just the pull) is the issue without a target cap

[OliviaLugria]

There is such a guide! Made by notorious shot-caller Olivia L. on Aether. Haven't read it for a while, but these are the salient features I recall.

How to win in FL:

1. Be a shot-caller. Various helpful macros are included.
2. Form a premade.
3. Various meta compositions are offered.
4. Tactics are suggested that inevitably involve fairly heavy casualties for those on your team not in the premade. Don't worry about that, they're not your friends anyway. The premade is so devastating they are simply collateral damage on the way to easy wins.

It's actually a really good guide, and I wish more FL players would read it because it corrects some common strategic misunderstandings. It's also deeply cynical IMO.

The problem is premades.

Thanks for name dropping me. I don't exactly agree with your 4th point there. Getting your team killed doesn't exactly seem point positive. Some premades can drop an entire alliance by themselves, but many need their team to also be building battle high and staying alive. I'm curious as to which tactics you were implying when writing the comment. I'd like to go back and edit my guide to ensure this is not the sentiment being spread.

I try my best to tell others to back up, fallback, don't get bursted by enemy darks, but sometimes I'm not or the team is not quick enough. People get left behind and have to be used as cover for an escape or be avenged in the counter burst.

[Mawlzy]

Thanks for name dropping me. I don't exactly agree with your 4th point there. Getting your team killed doesn't exactly seem point positive. Some premades can drop an entire alliance by themselves, but many need their team to also be building battle high and staying alive. I'm curious as to which tactics you were implying when writing the comment. I'd like to go back and edit my guide to ensure this is not the sentiment being spread.

I try my best to tell others to back up, fallback, don't get bursted by enemy darks, but sometimes I'm not or the team is not quick enough. People get left behind and have to be used as cover for an escape or be avenged in the counter burst.

Isn't there a bit where you address how to command the premade and mention the rapid retreats lead to collateral losses in the other 20 members of the team? Apologies if I misrepresented your position, I wrote the above from memory.

Let me add that both your strategic and tactical understanding of FL is exceptional and I genuinely admire your skill. That said, I'm not familiar with your recent call-outs since I blacklist anyone spamming the "KILL EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM" macro, or similar issues like using the same macro three times in a row, particularly if it includes <se.4>. Having made this change, I found things went just as well following your "D" marker, but ultimately I am so opposed to queue mixing that you are a major reason I quit playing the mode. Not a personal thing, just that I dislike playing with you or against you, and we tend to be on at the same time.

[OliviaLugria]

Isn't there a bit where you address how to command the premade and mention the rapid retreats lead to collateral losses in the other 20 members of the team? Apologies if I misrepresented your position, I wrote the above from memory.

Let me add that both your strategic and tactical understanding of FL is exceptional and I genuinely admire your skill. That said, I'm not familiar with your recent call-outs since I blacklist anyone spamming the "KILL EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM" macro, or similar issues like using the same macro three times in a row, particularly if it includes <se.4>. Having made this change, I found things went just as well following your "D" marker, but ultimately I am so opposed to queue mixing that you are a major reason I quit playing the mode. Not a personal thing, just that I dislike playing with you or against you, and we tend to be on at the same time.

No offense taken. I looked around to double check the guide. At least in the current version there is nothing about that. There use to be a mention of using afkers/bots as bait for enemy burst but it has since been removed. Rapid retreat in general is very important for the whole group not just the premade, just to finish that thought.

I think I've relaxed a bit on the spam as everyone has grown more receptive, but there's still those tense moments where I mess up. Close adherence to the D marker will get you through 90% of the calls, I don't blame you. I added instructions on how to mute chat when it's to much for people...

Sorry you can't enjoy the games I'm in... ;-;

[Mayhemmer]

Well, I happen to like 3 teams as a choice for PvP, so I wouldn't want that to disappear, especially as we do have other modes at various scales that have 2 -way teams.

I'd be more than happy to see Frontlines reduced to two teams, or at the very least, have additional modes designed only around two teams of 24. It's not as simple as saying "Less players means less AoE/CC/etc.," it's more that I see the adherence to 3 teams as too restricting to what could otherwise potentially be a very engaging mode, or at least more engaging that what it currently is.

Compromises have to be made to ensure some degree of fairness when accounting for 3 teams in objective-based modes; it's why nearly every Frontlines mode is so straightforward and same-y, and why objective spawns are primarily randomized. In theory: in unorganized chaos, every team is on equal footing. It mostly works as intended, I just think it's incredibly uninspired, and see it as a shame that FL can't seem to move past modes that are only some variation of 'click/stand on thing to get [X-amount] of points.'

The adherence to 3 teams doesn't just stifle mode and map design, it's the root of a lot of balance issues as well. Currently, battle high could be seen as an answer to the abundance of damage reduction modifiers, yet those modifiers only have a reason to exist due to the sheer abundance of damage sources the player has to deal with at any given time. I've said this before, but the modifiers don't exist in Rival Wings because the mode doesn't need them with it's smaller player count, and it functions just fine. I mentioned in another thread that after the changes to Shatter, fights of only two teams are far more common, and that the absence of that third group was making those fights more enjoyable for me, as there are fewer nukes and CC going off. If there's less cheese present, you run into less cheese.

The game also frequently struggles to keep up with so much activity at once in FL. I guess it's just kind of accepted at this point that you can get hit for full damage of abilities that guard should have mitigated when pressed well beforehand, or that you can get CC'd from well outside applicable ranges, but the fact remains that it still happens, and very commonly. Again, not an issue I've experienced in modes with fewer players.

What you express as "intentionally discouraging" , is depending upon what we are talking about - I would rephrase as a poor user experience. You used BH as an example.

In the current state of FL, there's not much BH does that isn't just contributing to glaring issues with balance. It's biggest crime currently is it's contribution to the already overabundant number of options players have of getting away with things that should have rightfully gotten them K.O.'d otherwise. Aravell is right in that it doesn't need to go away, it just needs to be tuned to not be a crutch used to enable cheese.

Well look at me, yelling at the sky again.

[YouWereIndicted]

Sure, job stacking in itself is a problem as it can lead to silly LB combos. But people really need to learn to position better. I can't even count on one hand the amount of times I have died to the typical DRK pull. You can see it coming from a mile away and reposition. Most premades fall flat on their face when they're going against a team that is working together or even another premade. I've seen some premades go from Aether to Crystal or queue dodge so they can avoid a premade that has been giving them trouble so they can keep their winrate. They rely heavily on the same tactics and just farming BH from people who don't know how to press Guard or Recuperate. There has been many times I was obviously marked by a premade (usually Target to Bind 1 or they mark me as Ignore) because I kept ratting them on jobs like SAM or MNK and I'm just one person who is paying attention and trying to counter a burst. People just need to learn to work together better. Apologies for repeating the word "premade" nonstop haha, but they are absolutely not the problem. But there is no balancing a big player mode such as Frontlines.

Also, maybe in 2024 people will learn to ignore the DRK that's in their invuln and instead walk past them and LB the melees and ranged that are behind the DRK and are trying to kill you instead. That would be progress.

[Mawlzy]

You're suggesting an effective counter to a premade is a premade, but that premades are not the problem?

I agree that if a solo-queued random team contains more skilled players, the problem is greatly mitigated. But how is that going to happen? We could remove rewards and roulette XP so only PvP enthusiasts queue. I have a feeling that would not be super popular, however.

[Aravell]

Also, maybe in 2024 people will learn to ignore the DRK that's in their invuln and instead walk past them and LB the melees and ranged that are behind the DRK and are trying to kill you instead. That would be progress.

It would be a great improvement if people would ignore the clearly unkillable DRK and just kill all the ASTs and BRDs around them, yes.

[YouWereIndicted]

You're suggesting an effective counter to a premade is a premade, but that premades are not the problem?

I agree that if a solo-queued random team contains more skilled players, the problem is greatly mitigated. But how is that going to happen? We could remove rewards and roulette XP so only PvP enthusiasts queue. I have a feeling that would not be super popular, however.

Nope! Only used that as an example that the average premade isn't as "OP" as people make them out to be regardless of their comp. If people weren't very dismissive of the game mode and just playing well in general this wouldn't be an issue. But yes you are right, that is never going to happen. People want things handed to them with no effort in this game and you're only allowed to try your best if its Savage/Ulti raiding apparently. Nowadays I only run this mode with friends as I got all my rewards. But when I was going for the achievements I was solo 99% of the time and that is my point of view on this game mode.

[Commander_Justitia]

People want things handed to them with no effort in this game and you're only allowed to try your best if its Savage/Ulti raiding apparently

People are openly bragging that they just join Frontline for the Exp, and that you should take a chill pill for trying to make a few callouts (5-10) with soundeffects per match.
I hope devs would incentivize active participation a bit more, the easiest way to do that is to tweak the rewards to be more in favor of 1st and 2nd place - and to not give out a flat XP roulette reward, if you don't win. Similar to moogle events.