Disruptive Frontline Gameplay

[Scintilla]

You just agreed that the goal of each of the coalition members is to beat the alliance in the lead so that one of them will win. I don't see how that is a "sacrifice".

To make it simpler - Blue are premade, Yellow and Red are random.

Now, just to check that I'm not misunderstanding:
You argue that because the random alliances' goal has now changed from "Let's win" to "Let's make sure anyone wins except the premade", that Red having to voluntarily lose the game in favour of supporting Yellow to win, means that they are no longer making a sacrifice?
That Red are sacrificing nothing because their new goal was to stop the premade (Blue) winning?

It is another angle to view it from, but I still can't say that I fully agree with it. I acknowledge it remains a conscious decision, but in all fairness, they aren't given all that much choice: you either both lose to the premade or only one of you loses to the premade. And given that the whole point of FL is to support your alliance to victory, being presented with such an ultimatum somewhat goes against this. Unless you would now view the two random alliances as one united, singular alliance.

So many players affected, solely because 4 players decided they wanted an easy run.

[Mawlzy]

Some interesting new observations above, hence I'm back, ahem.

My biased summary of the key points.

Premades:

1. Magnify perceived job imbalances/stacks. Two solutions (not necessarily mutually exclusive): have separate queues for solo and premades or rebalance jobs (again, and people will continue to complain anyway).
2. Lead to despondency, match throwing, and match distortion. Two solutions (not necessarily mutually exclusive): have separate queues for solo and premades or wave a magic wand so people no longer mind getting curb-stomped.
3. Amplify the effects of BH through early, multiple kills. Two solutions (not necessarily mutually exclusive): have separate queues for solo and premades or remove BH (thereby treating the symptoms and not the disease and likely lengthening matches considerably).

Given that, anecdotally, FL does not have a huge dev team dedicated to it, using an AoE to kill three birds with one stone strikes me as the simplest solution.

[Aravell]

I want to put forward a general question here:

Do you guys realise that the people who play in pre-mades aren't purely people who want to stomp teams and get easy wins? Casual players are very likely to play in pre-mades because they don't like PvP and only play with friends. Your solution would force casual players or new players being introduced into PvP by a friend to get stomped repeatedly by these pre-mades that you say are a problem, causing them to quit PvP, losing us new players.

So it's fine as long as you don't have to see the pre-mades, right?

[Mawlzy]

I want to put forward a general question here:

Do you guys realise that the people who play in pre-mades aren't purely people who want to stomp teams and get easy wins? Casual players are very likely to play in pre-mades because they don't like PvP and only play with friends. Your solution would force casual players or new players being introduced into PvP by a friend to get stomped repeatedly by these pre-mades that you say are a problem, causing them to quit PvP, losing us new players.

So it's fine as long as you don't have to see the pre-mades, right?

Yes, am aware, although why someone who doesn't like PvP would play PvP with or without friends puzzles me. And if they do decide to play, they can't get stomped by premades if there are no premades.

Obviously I don't want to remove people's opportunity to play with friends, hence dual queues.

[Scintilla]

Can you define what "play as normal" means? Do you mean just playing for objectives? Because that's a fantastic way to lose the game.

Firstly, no. I can safely say that I am not a "focus ice" player
In fact, calls for such approaches push my patience immensely, but that's another matter...

I completely agree that kills are just as valuable as objectives (with an excellent team, perhaps even more so). Typically though, FLs are won from a balance of objectives and PvP.
Basic rules in a normal game: in terms of PvP, it's focus the winning team; in terms of objectives, it somewhat depends on the circumstances including how valuable the objective is (large/small ice, B/A/S rank nodes) and the current situation (No point running to fight Yellow for an S-rank node when Blue are on the brink of winning and have an A-rank spawn nearby etc.).

In the event of focusing down a premade, ultimately, objectives become ignored. A few players are likely to still go for them, but the main majority of the team will remain focused on the premade and their alliance.

So, why exactly would going after and farming the pre-made harm your chances to win? If you insist that pinching the pre-made is the only way to beat them, that means that the other alliance is also in combat with the pre-made, why are they getting the objectives and you're not?

I have just mentioned this in my previous reply: it is a conscious decision. An ultimatum.

As my previous screenshot of a premade game's scores show, there is often an immense difference between the final scores of premade teams and those of random teams:
Approx. 600 for both random teams, over double that score for the premade's alliance. They farm points far quicker than a random team would and sometimes, despite attempts from both alliances to focus them down, their score cannot quite be brought to equal levels with the two random teams. Leaving the random teams with an ultimatum: either they both lose to the premade or they give up objectives to the random team in second place to try to push them into first, in which case, only one of them loses to the premade.

which is laughable, since if you've been destroying them long enough for them to fall to last place

Sadly, not the case. Both teams focusing the premade's alliance down will drain their score, certainly, but they will still be gaining points, the premade using their alliance members as a shield whilst they attack, run, heal, repeat. It will be a far slower rate than they were as the premade will have to be far, far more cautious and the deaths of alliance members will be draining many of the points they gain. But still, the score gaps are often huge and point gain still increases, albeit much slower.

[Aravell]

Obviously I don't want to remove people's opportunity to play with friends, hence dual queues.

And if people do decide to play with friends, what do they get? Ah yes, they get to wait in a longer queue just to get stomped by the pre-mades that everyone claims are a problem when they get a match. This is basically just pushing the problem that people have off to somewhere else that they don't plan to go.

[Scintilla]

I want to put forward a general question here:

Do you guys realise that the people who play in pre-mades aren't purely people who want to stomp teams and get easy wins? Casual players are very likely to play in pre-mades because they don't like PvP and only play with friends. Your solution would force casual players or new players being introduced into PvP by a friend to get stomped repeatedly by these pre-mades that you say are a problem, causing them to quit PvP, losing us new players.

So it's fine as long as you don't have to see the pre-mades, right?

I'm far too lazy to write this out again so...

There's a whole world of difference between 'playing with friends' and forming voice-coordinated teams with the sole intention of controlling the game to the point where opposing teams have to form a silent alliance to focus them down, with one random team practically forfeiting the match for the sake of the other.

I play with friends. We queue together to be on the same team, but aside from that we play separately. My support/coordination with my friends is no different to that of random players on the team. Our competition remains between each other, comparing scores at the end. These premade teams are totally different, taking heavy advantage of the fact that they have a pre-arranged team which many players may not have (PvP isn't exactly a highly popular part of the game and matters like this contribute to that) and using voice chat to reach a level of coordination which cannot be replicated within a random team.

[Aravell]

I'm far too lazy to write this out again so...

Yes, and you don't see the problem with putting the casual 'play for fun' pre-mades permanently in the same queue as the 'meta comp and voice comms' pre-mades?

[Scintilla]

And if people do decide to play with friends, what do they get? Ah yes, they get to wait in a longer queue just to get stomped by the pre-mades that everyone claims are a problem when they get a match. This is basically just pushing the problem that people have off to somewhere else that they don't plan to go.

Yes, and you don't see the problem with putting the casual 'play for fun' pre-mades permanently in the same queue as the 'meta comp and voice comms' pre-mades?

Other alternatives would be better, naturally. This isn't a single issue, but lots of smaller ones. It's not solely because players can play together as a party with friends that this issue comes about. It contributes, definitely, but there are other factors at play.

It's something which needs to be fixed somehow, but finding a solution will not be easy.

[Mawlzy]

And if people do decide to play with friends, what do they get? Ah yes, they get to wait in a longer queue just to get stomped by the pre-mades that everyone claims are a problem when they get a match. This is basically just pushing the problem that people have off to somewhere else that they don't plan to go.

You're creating a hypothetical that may be problematic for a small number of players, whereas I'm attempting to address one that is poisoning the entire mode.