Disruptive Frontline Gameplay

[Scintilla]

I think we've passed the point of diminishing returns on this discussion, although overall I've found it extremely useful. Thanks to all who shared their views. I did want to make one last contribution, however.

I just queued in to FL and immediately one of the premade leaders/shot callers popped up in chat. We won easily, with 2nd on about 1200 and 3rd sub-1000 (Shatter).

IMO the assists stat is the one that best reflects how overpowered a team led by a coordinated premade can be. So I ordered the K/D/A by A. The first 21 players in assists were all from our team. I apologize I didn't get a screenshot; I was still gawping at the data when I timed out of the instance.

For me the "fight" (a.k.a. shooting fish in a barrel) was completely uninteresting. I doubt the other two teams liked it at all. And so I quit FL and came here to whine about it.

Good luck, everyone. Hope to see you on a (level) battlefield.

Jessa The Pink Paladin

I have an old screenshot of one premade's scores on our DC. I have omitted all of the names to avoid causing any problems.

Not this team's best game as they have had higher scores in the past, but it's probably not a too bad average of the typical scores/match outcome.

[Chasingstars]

[IDontPetLalas]

If you encounter a premade, you'll know you encountered a premade. If it's a 'maybe', it's likely just a strong, well-coordinated random team. Though playing a couple of times a day at the very most may go some way to explain why you've been fortunate with your experiences so far.

*(snip, apologies, length)*

I enjoy PvP and don't want to see people stop playing it because of the issues caused by premades. We don't seem to be at that stage quite yet (at least, not on my own DC), but if left to continue we could well reach that point eventually. As I tend to play FLs with friends, I would be a little sad if the ability to queue as a party was removed and I hope that there would be some other solution. But, if it comes to that being the only solution to this issue, I would accept it.

FYI, I stopped counting when I hit 1000 FL, which was quite a while ago, I queue just a few times a day at most unless there's an event. I don't think we have the same experience or definition of premades - a premade aka a "light party" is not a " a strong, well-coordinated random team" by definition, it's not random, it may or may not be strong, although the longer a group stays together the stronger it tends to be as they know each other, they may or may not use voice comms- but not being a random group, having PvPed together and being on voice will all give them an advantage over 4 random people slapped together, and I doubt that anywhere here disputes that.

I fully agree that my experience as someone who queues a few times a day could be quite different from someone who may queue repeatedly for several hours at a time, especially if that happens to coincide with the exact time that an especially strong premade is entering, and RNG happens to match them up repeatedly against them. In my case, I would potentially meet up with that premade once or twice a day.

I would definitely not want to remove the light party option from FL, there are people in my FC who enjoy using it, and those who like to help sprouts with that option. I can see alternative options that could be helpful, so I see that as the last resort.

One thing that I don't thing anyone has considered- let's say that the option of removing light party was accepted by Square. I doubt it would be done quickly, it would likely take at least several months, if not more. So for that reason alone, if someone feels that it affects them, and thy have identified a specific premade - then why not consider varying their queue times with the goal of avoiding that premade?

[Scintilla]

la premade aka a "light party" is not a " a strong, well-coordinated random team" by definition, it's not random

I don't believe I've ever suggested a premade was random, so you seem to have misunderstood my previous post somewhat. I am fully aware of what a premade is - hence my discussion here. If they were random teams, there would be no such discussion.

I said that premades are obvious. If you aren't sure whether a team was a premade team or not, I would lean more towards the 'not'. If anyone is unsure if they've ever come across a premade team, I would guess that those occasions they weren't sure about were actually well-coordinated random teams, not premades. I'm not sure whether I explained myself any better there?

if someone feels that it affects them, and thy have identified a specific premade - then why not consider varying their queue times with the goal of avoiding that premade?

Avoidance is something of an option and a method that one of my friends prefers to use whenever we're playing FLs together and come across a premade in the previous game. But that is just avoiding the problem, not fixing it. I don't know how much of an effect player feedback here has on future adjustments (maybe JP forums have greater leverage in that sense), but if discussions here on forum has even the slightest chance of being read, then it's worth contributing.

[Aravell]

When I say these attacks are simultaneous, I'm not overexaggerating.

I'm not doubting your experiences are real, but I remain skeptical. I've played a lot of FL across every iteration and on several DCs, I've never met an unbeatable pre-made that could not be disrupted in some way, even the 8 man deathballs back when we could queue as a full party could be disrupted. People aren't robots, I'm very skeptical that people can have perfect coordination throughout the entire match. Unless, of course, said people have some, shall we say, assistance?

As for this reply to my suggestion of a hidden rating system:

Ultimately, it will lead to the same veteran players being endlessly matched against the same premade teams, to the point where they just stop playing. So no, to believe that such a system will work shows naivety at best

How many experienced FL players do you know that consistently dies to DRK combos? Most veterans are experienced enough to understand how to deal with it. You yourself conceded that you can deal with them by pinching them with the other alliance. What makes you think a full game of 72 veterans would be so disorganised to completely lose it to a singular pre-made?

Like I said before, the main problem is the skill gap at work. And when I say "skill", I don't mean how well someone pushes their buttons, any monkey can push the 6-7 buttons that we have now. I'm talking about FL-related skills like map awareness, knowing when to go in and when to back off, understanding when you're in a bad position, being able to tell when your team is in a perfect position to get pinched, all qualities that a shotcaller would have.

[IDontPetLalas]

I don't believe I've ever suggested a premade was random, so you seem to have misunderstood my previous post somewhat. I am fully aware of what a premade is - hence my discussion here. If they were random teams, there would be no such discussion.

I said that premades are obvious. If you aren't sure whether a team was a premade team or not, I would lean more towards the 'not'. If anyone is unsure if they've ever come across a premade team, I would guess that those occasions they weren't sure about were actually well-coordinated random teams, not premades. I'm not sure whether I explained myself any better there?



Avoidance is something of an option and a method that one of my friends prefers to use whenever we're playing FLs together and come across a premade in the previous game. But that is just avoiding the problem, not fixing it. I don't know how much of an effect player feedback here has on future adjustments (maybe JP forums have greater leverage in that sense), but if discussions here on forum has even the slightest chance of being read, then it's worth contributing.

I'll repeat what I said before, but I'll reword it, because I didn't say that this was necessarily a "fix" for what you see as an issue. Nor for that matter do any of us know whether Square reads this, or any of the community forums (in any language), it's rather amusing, each forum always thinks the other forums get more attention.

Let's say that the solution that you want is to have separate pre-made and solo queues, it would fix several issues that you see know.

Let's say that Square agrees with you. Fine, it will take 9 months (this is just something I guesstimated).

So, we agree, what you see is an issue (or more than 1 issue) isn't fixed - your friend has a "workaround" (maybe you don't), until Square comes back in 9 months, and you look at what they deliver.

[dmi]

It is easy the europan data center lags like hell. any actions are delayed so it is much more easier to kill ppl ... sad but true

[Scintilla]

How many experienced FL players do you know that consistently dies to DRK combos? Most veterans are experienced enough to understand how to deal with it. You yourself conceded that you can deal with them by pinching them with the other alliance. What makes you think a full game of 72 veterans would be so disorganised to completely lose it to a singular pre-made

Veteran players are less likely to die repeatedly to premades. But, in my own experience, even when playing as part of very good teams, the most effective (and sometimes the only way) of handling of premades remains to 2v1 them with the other alliance. This isn't simply "pinch them once or twice and then play as normal", but a constant focus on them throughout the duration of the game:

As said countless times already - this requires both random teams to make a silent alliance to focus down this premade together. While they're attacking one random team, the other comes to support them and kill the premade, and vice versa. This would need to be done repeatedly throughout the entire match to keep their BH down - just doing it once or twice might hit the reset button (assuming you do actually kill them all), but they'll quickly pick up that BH again the moment you stop. Objectives become totally ignored and/or given to whichever random team is currently in second place to keep them in the game.

Is it a remedy? Yes, it's not frequently employed by random teams largely because it involves adjusting play significantly from what would usually be correct. But it is a method becoming more common as players become more familiar with premades. But it's treating the symptoms, not the cause. There is currently a significant imbalance caused by current FL setup which is taken heavy advantage of by premade teams. This is a reality.

There are 2 options to work around this:
1. Create a premade team of your own
2. Spend the entire game with both random alliances focusing down the premade's alliance, often finishing up with one random alliance having to sacrifice their game for the sake of the other.

Having a premade team of your own should never be obligatory or a prerequisite purely to make FLs competitive and to do so would only make the situation worse by making the issue more common and widespread, forcing more and more to do the same or quit PvP entirely.

As for option 2, I don't see why FL games should involve forcing one random team into sacrificing their game to assist the second random team, just to keep any semblance of competition going. The many being forced to adjust purely for the benefit of the few - a few who prefer to take an easy route to wins rather than employing any of these characteristics which you define to be 'skill'

[Scintilla]

Nor for that matter do any of us know whether Square reads this, or any of the community forums (in any language), it's rather amusing, each forum always thinks the other forums get more attention.

Let's hope that they do. Not only for this matter but for all suggestions and discussions made here.

So, we agree, what you see is an issue (or more than 1 issue) isn't fixed - your friend has a "workaround" (maybe you don't), until Square comes back in 9 months, and you look at what they deliver.

There's some workarounds, whether it's complete avoidance, forming a premade of your own, or a union of the two random alliances. But the source problem remains. Problems aren't fixed unless they're reported and discussed, hence this thread.

[AriannaStormwake]

they get their own separate queues/matchmaking puts them against other premades and not vs pugs easy perhaps