Disruptive Frontline Gameplay

[Aravell]

As said above, if everyone runs leaving only 3 people at the forefront of the enemy team, the DRK is going to run straight past them to catch up with a larger body of the team. Unless you all keep running for your lives until you're now far, far away from the objective, which you have no given them with no counter. If anyone got away, it's purely because a substantial number of their alliance didn't.

You do understand that if the DRK pre-made runs past the stragglers to engage the bigger part of the alliance, they've made the grave error of pinching themselves while parts of their team are hanging back at the objective, right? In that situation, the pre-made is at a severe disadvantage because they're down people while you have the entire alliance there and they're now pinched in the middle of your alliance. If an entire alliance somehow manages to lose the fight when the enemy is at such a disadvantage, then the average skill level really needs to go up.

In that situation, you'd turn around and clean house, then take their objective.

[Mawlzy]

The DRK combo is very ineffective against that solution. How do I know it actually works? Because that's what everyone does on JP.

Like I said in an earlier post, the problems with the DRK combo does not need any nerfs, it requires players to be of equal skill. If the game matches people of equal skill, then the match would be properly balanced. Currently, the team that loses is the one that has the most people that are unable to cope with the DRK meta.

Simply not true on Aether.

[Aravell]

Simply not true on Aether.

Then how is it a job issue and not an issue with the general level of competency?

Honestly, I've never seen this mythical pre-made that can somehow work in perfect tandem with 1 DRK, 1 RPR and more than 6 ASTs despite only being able to queue in with a max of 4 people. Rarely have I seen perfect coordination, and never have I seen perfect coordination for the entire match, but according to people in this thread, it seems to be a common thing.

[Scintilla]

Many people make the claim that the DRK combo is very easy to pull off and requires no skill, so why doesn't everyone do it then? Have you ever seen a bad DRK+AST group? I've seen many, they feed the enemy team a lot because they think they're meta and invincible.

A lot of people are doing it - hence this thread. Just because there are system weakness that are exploited by some, it doesn't mean that it should be an obligation for all players to form a premade team of their own solely just to be able to have a remotely competitive game.

As for how to combat this combo when the pre-made is actually good? There is one way that almost always works.

Firstly, you are somewhat assuming this to be a purely DRK/AST/AST/AST team. I haven't come across any such teams myself so I couldn't comment on how effective they are or their playstyle.
I have had a few experiences with DRK/SMN premades but, whilst annoying, these weren't immensely effective - mark the DRK, make a call reminding others to use Guard, and then focus down the weaker SMNs wherever possible. It was a nuisance, sure. But workable. My main experiences though have been DRK/DRG/DRG/RPR premades. This is not so straightforward. Guard is now effectively useless, focusing down a BH5 DRG is going to take far longer to do and Elusive Jump is invaluable in making their escape, RPR similarly has it's teleport to make a quick exit.

This also requires the premade to be focused on attacking the other random team whilst your own random team comes in for the attack. As said countless times already - this requires both random teams to make a silent alliance to focus down this premade together. While they're attacking one random team, the other comes to support them and kill the premade, and vice versa. This would need to be done repeatedly throughout the entire match to keep their BH down - just doing it once or twice might hit the reset button (assuming you do actually kill them all), but they'll quickly pick up that BH again the moment you stop. Objectives become totally ignored and/or given to whichever random team is currently in second place to keep them in the game.
This also somewhat relies on the outlook of both random teams being the same. A joint alliance. It only takes a single random team to try to take advantage of the premade, perhaps by leaving the other team to fight them alone ("let them fight, just focus on objectives and we win") or by trying to farm the other random team to steal free kills, and the whole system breaks apart with the premade getting a guaranteed win. Fortunately, as time passes and more and more players become aware of premades, teamwork between the two random alliances is becoming a little more common, but it's still by no means the majority.

[Mawlzy]

You mentioned an FL guide for new players. I'm curious, what would you include in this guide which would be so profound that it would make premades suddenly survivable?

There is such a guide! Made by notorious shot-caller Olivia L. on Aether. Haven't read it for a while, but these are the salient features I recall.

How to win in FL:

1. Be a shot-caller. Various helpful macros are included.
2. Form a premade.
3. Various meta compositions are offered.
4. Tactics are suggested that inevitably involve fairly heavy casualties for those on your team not in the premade. Don't worry about that, they're not your friends anyway. The premade is so devastating they are simply collateral damage on the way to easy wins.

It's actually a really good guide, and I wish more FL players would read it because it corrects some common strategic misunderstandings. It's also deeply cynical IMO.

The problem is premades.

[Scintilla]

You do understand that if the DRK pre-made runs past the stragglers to engage the bigger part of the alliance, they've made the grave error of pinching themselves while parts of their team are hanging back at the objective, right? In that situation, the pre-made is at a severe disadvantage because they're down people while you have the entire alliance there and they're now pinched in the middle of your alliance. If an entire alliance somehow manages to lose the fight when the enemy is at such a disadvantage, then the average skill level really needs to go up.

In that situation, you'd turn around and clean house, then take their objective.

I feel you misunderstand. Presuming they are in a substantial group of your alliance the DRK will voke, LB, and kill, as is standard. A large proportion of your team will be dead and those of you who remain will not be able to fight the high BH enemy ahead of you.

If they run at you, the vast majority of your team will run. If enough have begun to run early enough that there are only 2-3 players still at the objective site, they won't voke. It's not worth it. Instead, they will either run past those 2-3 players and (assuming the rest of the team are still close enough for it to be safe) jump to the next nearest player who's within range of other alliance members. It's hardly 'pinched' when they've only got 2 or 3 enemy players behind them - and chances are these 2 or 3 players will be the newer players who didn't (and still haven't) realised the danger that's coming. In the unlikely event that everyone evacuated so quickly that it's no longer safe for the DRK to voke and the attack to be made, you've still given away the objective to them with no counter attack at all. I don't need to point out that that's not the way to win FLs...

[Mawlzy]

Then how is it a job issue and not an issue with the general level of competency?

Honestly, I've never seen this mythical pre-made that can somehow work in perfect tandem with 1 DRK, 1 RPR and more than 6 ASTs despite only being able to queue in with a max of 4 people. Rarely have I seen perfect coordination, and never have I seen perfect coordination for the entire match, but according to people in this thread, it seems to be a common thing.

There are actually two parallel threads here, which I think is confusing the debate. Some hold that current FL problems stem simply from a job balance issue, others that the toxin is premades. I take the second position, based on my experience, with the caveat that I think the current jobs magnify the efficacy of a premade.

As I've acknowledged previously, I may be missing something fundamental due to unconscious biases from PvP in other MMOs I've played. That said, the idea of mixing multi-player sub-teams with the potential of voice comms with solo players is, to me, so incredibly daft I can't imagine how it ever arose in the first place. More importantly, perhaps, there is a growing perception (on Aether) that the outcome of the match is basically determined from the outset when one of the high-quality premades is on the field.

As Scintilla notes, people are trying to take counter-measures, and honestly I find that quite interesting. I'm more disturbed by the mindset of the individuals in these premades, as evidenced by the DM Doozer shared. It's borderline sociopathic.

[Scintilla]

Then how is it a job issue and not an issue with the general level of competency?

Honestly, I've never seen this mythical pre-made that can somehow work in perfect tandem with 1 DRK, 1 RPR and more than 6 ASTs despite only being able to queue in with a max of 4 people. Rarely have I seen perfect coordination, and never have I seen perfect coordination for the entire match, but according to people in this thread, it seems to be a common thing.

I'm not sure where anyone has claimed to have seen a team of 1 DRK / 1 RPR / 6 ASTs?

My own experiences are DRK / RPR / DRG / DRG. Others have stated experiences with DRK/AST/AST/AST.

[Aravell]

This also requires the premade to be focused on attacking the other random team whilst your own random team comes in for the attack.

You misunderstand my meaning. 1 single tank can disrupt or divert a portion of the backline, or if you're lucky, you can divert the entire backline. If the backline gets dived, there will be 2 common reactions, either they will scatter and flee or they will focus their attention on the person that just dived into them, in both cases, you have successfully diverted the attention of the pre-made's support group and made them that much less effective, if your team is at least aware of the fact that the 4 person pre-made is left to fend for themselves, it's very easy for them to turn it around on them, maybe take out some of their battle high.

I feel you misunderstand.

I don't know how it is on Aether, I rarely play there, but on OCE or JP, this is a common tactic. You back off and bait the enemy team inwards, then you turn around and clean up as more of the enemy team backs away back to the objective. It just greatly weakens the power of the opposing team, which makes them easier to clean up, provided your team is of comparable skill. In the end, any skill gap is a major factor.

As for your presented problem of DRK+RPR+DRGs, Guard would not be worth it, yes, but there is another way. If you Purify the bind and Sprint away, the Hysteria from the RPR LB will likely send you out from the Sky Shatter focus point, which results in you taking much less damage. There should be time as the RPR would want to wait for the Guards to come out so they can break people out of them. On another note, another possible solution to AST stacking is to silence or stun the ASTs in the group, staggering the Macrocosmos casts, which would allow people to Recuperate in between hits and not instantly blow up.

One thing I do agree with people on DRK is that the snapshot for the pull-in on Salted Earth is very wonky since you can be pulled back in when you're already out of range before the animation even starts.

I'm not sure where anyone has claimed to have seen a team of 1 DRK / 1 RPR / 6 ASTs?

My own experiences are DRK / RPR / DRG / DRG. Others have stated experiences with DRK/AST/AST/AST.

Certain people have made claims of 6+ ASTs in this very thread, you can probably find it very easily. I'm just going off what other people have said.

[Scintilla]

If the backline gets dived, there will be 2 common reactions, either they will scatter and flee or they will focus their attention on the person that just dived into them, in both cases, you have successfully diverted the attention of the pre-made's support group and made them that much less effective, if your team is at least aware of the fact that the 4 person pre-made is left to fend for themselves, it's very easy for them to turn it around on them, maybe take out some of their battle high.

So you meant to use a tank/melee to attack the premade's alliance, whilst the premade enter for the kill? Sadly, that too doesn't work from my own experience:

The DRK approaches, the ally tank/melee will jump into the premades alliance. Scattering is less likely - as I said, they're now aware they have a premade and become a little more confident than they would have been in a random team, where scatter may be a likely response. The most likely outcome is they will attack the incoming tank/melee. Depending on the tank/melee used, for example WAR, large groups of the enemy team may be temporarily stunned as part of the attack. In which case, yes, you will likely succeed in distracting the randoms of the premades alliance. However, it remains the case that whilst you are doing all of this, your team are dying right behind you to the premade. While you were jumping into their alliance, their DRK was jumping into yours. Their RPR teleporting in with them, and both DRGs already in the process of their LB cast and are within your team. Now you're in the middle of the enemy team with no aid.

As for your presented problem of DRK+RPR+DRGs, Guard would not be worth it, yes, but there is another way. If you Purify the bind and Sprint away, the Hysteria from the RPR LB will likely send you out from the Sky Shatter focus point, which results in you taking much less damage. There should be time as the RPR would want to wait for the Guards to come out so they can break people out of them.

Purify, Sprint doesn't work. No, the RPR won't need to wait for the Guards to appear - they jump in and use the LB. Anyone who used Guard will have it removed. Anyone who didn't use it wouldn't be able to apply it now anyway - they're sent into Hysteria. They can't use skills, they can't run with purpose, they can't do anything. So the RPR has no need to wait for people to use Guard. When I say these attacks are simultaneous, I'm not overexaggerating.