Disruptive Frontline Gameplay

[Doozer]

As for how to combat this combo when the pre-made is actually good? There is one way that almost always works. Flank the enemy and dive their backline as the pre-made makes their charge, the backline will flee and condemn the 4 man pre-made to die. ASTs are basically food, the DRK will usually get away, but that's fine, just feed on the ASTs and they'll never gain battle high. No matter how good the pre-made is, they cannot control 20 other people, when people get flanked, their first instinct is to flee. If no one follows-up, the pre-made is basically useless.

That requires all 24 people on your team to understand this and cooperate, whereas what usually happens is they see their party get one-shot and go "oh, these people again, gg" and half of them give up. And you can't blame them for that, when again these teams win every match they're in. If that strategy was so easy to use to counter these teams, people would already be doing it. But they aren't.

[Aravell]

That requires all 24 people on your team to understand this and cooperate, whereas what usually happens is they see their party get one-shot and go "oh, these people again, gg" and half of them give up. And you can't blame them for that, when again these teams win every match they're in. If that strategy was so easy to use to counter these teams, people would already be doing it. But they aren't.

The DRK combo is very ineffective against that solution. How do I know it actually works? Because that's what everyone does on JP.

Like I said in an earlier post, the problems with the DRK combo does not need any nerfs, it requires players to be of equal skill. If the game matches people of equal skill, then the match would be properly balanced. Currently, the team that loses is the one that has the most people that are unable to cope with the DRK meta.

[Doozer]

The DRK combo is very ineffective against that solution. How do I know it actually works? Because that's what everyone does on JP.

Like I said in an earlier post, the problems with the DRK combo does not need any nerfs, it requires players to be of equal skill. If the game matches people of equal skill, then the match would be properly balanced. Currently, the team that loses is the one that has the most people that are unable to cope with the DRK meta.

It's not the "DRK meta", it's 6 ASTs following a DRK around and spamming the same skill all at the same time. It's not the DRK killing everyone.

[Mawlzy]

The DRK combo is very ineffective against that solution. How do I know it actually works? Because that's what everyone does on JP.

Like I said in an earlier post, the problems with the DRK combo does not need any nerfs, it requires players to be of equal skill. If the game matches people of equal skill, then the match would be properly balanced. Currently, the team that loses is the one that has the most people that are unable to cope with the DRK meta.

Simply not true on Aether.

[Aravell]

Simply not true on Aether.

Then how is it a job issue and not an issue with the general level of competency?

Honestly, I've never seen this mythical pre-made that can somehow work in perfect tandem with 1 DRK, 1 RPR and more than 6 ASTs despite only being able to queue in with a max of 4 people. Rarely have I seen perfect coordination, and never have I seen perfect coordination for the entire match, but according to people in this thread, it seems to be a common thing.

[Mawlzy]

Then how is it a job issue and not an issue with the general level of competency?

Honestly, I've never seen this mythical pre-made that can somehow work in perfect tandem with 1 DRK, 1 RPR and more than 6 ASTs despite only being able to queue in with a max of 4 people. Rarely have I seen perfect coordination, and never have I seen perfect coordination for the entire match, but according to people in this thread, it seems to be a common thing.

There are actually two parallel threads here, which I think is confusing the debate. Some hold that current FL problems stem simply from a job balance issue, others that the toxin is premades. I take the second position, based on my experience, with the caveat that I think the current jobs magnify the efficacy of a premade.

As I've acknowledged previously, I may be missing something fundamental due to unconscious biases from PvP in other MMOs I've played. That said, the idea of mixing multi-player sub-teams with the potential of voice comms with solo players is, to me, so incredibly daft I can't imagine how it ever arose in the first place. More importantly, perhaps, there is a growing perception (on Aether) that the outcome of the match is basically determined from the outset when one of the high-quality premades is on the field.

As Scintilla notes, people are trying to take counter-measures, and honestly I find that quite interesting. I'm more disturbed by the mindset of the individuals in these premades, as evidenced by the DM Doozer shared. It's borderline sociopathic.

[Scintilla]

As Scintilla notes, people are trying to take counter-measures, and honestly I find that quite interesting.

I very much wish there was some kind of consistent countermeasure. So far the best I've seen is both random alliances working together, in which the objective is no longer 'win the FL' but becomes 'stop the premade winning the FL'.

MNK stun/knockback is nice vs DRKs using their LB on cliff edges or the Onsal podium but it's something of an opportunistic attack, relying on the DRK being in a good position and there being few healers around to support them.

SAM LB might be taken advantage of against DRK/DRG/DRG/DRG premades, using the Chiten buff and then Guard as soon as you see the marked DRK coming, allowing yourself to be drawn into the voke and attacks, before using your LB to try to instantly kill one of the BH5 DRGs before they escape. That said, it doesn't remotely stop them and they'll quickly build that BH again. The cooldown is very long so it isn't something which can be spammed. It is also useless against any premade team which uses RPR, as obviously, without Guard you will die to the LBs before being able to use your own LB.

Forming your own team of RPRs and chaining your LBs may be another option: RPR LB is unavoidable (even applying to DRGs in their LB hide, I believe) and cooldown is very quick. Perhaps chaining these Hysteria debuffs might be enough to enable the DRGs to waste their LBs. That said, such an approach would require your own coordinated premade to be formed and I still strongly believe that having your own premade party should never be obligatory to be able to play FLs competitively.

I haven't tried SGE in PvP myself, but I have considered it when trying to think of ways to combat premades. SGE LB offers invincibility and you don't need to be directly stood within your group to use it. But the buff only lasts for a very short time (5-seconds?) and the CD is incredibly long. Ideally, multiple SGE or an AST would be needed to make it a remotely credible option (again - forming your own premade should never be obligatory). Also, reading the skill description it seems that any enemies within the LB area get a DoT which also allows them to attack the protected players. Whether this would work against DRGs if they cast their LB outside the buff but actually use it inside, I'm not sure. Never tried it.
The protective area can be moved to a new location after initial casting, so whether you would be able to place it over your team to give your team the invincibility buff and then quickly move it to a new location far away to prevent the premade getting the DoT allowing attacks, I'm not sure. The duration is only 5-seconds long so timing would be crucial. I haven't tried it yet personally, and I presume there is some obvious downfall that I'm overlooking, otherwise it would be more widely used.

[IDontPetLalas]

There are actually two parallel threads here, which I think is confusing the debate. Some hold that current FL problems stem simply from a job balance issue, others that the toxin is premades. I take the second position, based on my experience, with the caveat that I think the current jobs magnify the efficacy of a premade.

As I've acknowledged previously, I may be missing something fundamental due to unconscious biases from PvP in other MMOs I've played. That said, the idea of mixing multi-player sub-teams with the potential of voice comms with solo players is, to me, so incredibly daft I can't imagine how it ever arose in the first place. More importantly, perhaps, there is a growing perception (on Aether) that the outcome of the match is basically determined from the outset when one of the high-quality premades is on the field.

As Scintilla notes, people are trying to take counter-measures, and honestly I find that quite interesting. I'm more disturbed by the mindset of the individuals in these premades, as evidenced by the DM Doozer shared. It's borderline sociopathic.

I do believe that your prior experience in other PvP games has some bearing on this, and perhaps you should consider that a game that is designed at the outset with PvP at its core - such as EvE- is not going to include the same functionality, nor the same audience- as FFXIV? While I haven't been playing FFXIV since the start, from prior discussion my understanding is that the premade incorporation has been significantly reduced.

I don't find it "daft" in the context of this game, in a casual, non-ranked, PvP mode, that we do have a small number of people who can queue together. I have agreed with what Aravell has been saying as well- hence when Scintilla mentioned "If they run at you, the vast majority of your team will run"- mark them, and why I suggested shot-calling, using someone who is familiar with their tactics.

Also, calling them "sociopathic"-here's an often used definition " a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience." So you've diagnosed this from a short DM that Doozer initiated from losing against a premade that someone dared organize, and basically said "thanks for the easy wins, hope to see you again"? Again, personally I wouldn't say what they said, but I've seen worse in other games and it wasn't considered "sociopathic".

[Mawlzy]

Also, calling them "sociopathic"-here's an often used definition " a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience." So you've diagnosed this from a short DM that Doozer initiated from losing against a premade that someone dared organize, and basically said "thanks for the easy wins, hope to see you again"? Again, personally I wouldn't say what they said, but I've seen worse in other games and it wasn't considered "sociopathic".

That was a little hyperbolic, I grant you, and was more motivated by the subsequent mention of a Discord that organizes a premade with a "cry more salt" channel, in which comments made by players thoroughly PO'd with the premade are recorded.

[Scintilla]

Then how is it a job issue and not an issue with the general level of competency?

Honestly, I've never seen this mythical pre-made that can somehow work in perfect tandem with 1 DRK, 1 RPR and more than 6 ASTs despite only being able to queue in with a max of 4 people. Rarely have I seen perfect coordination, and never have I seen perfect coordination for the entire match, but according to people in this thread, it seems to be a common thing.

I'm not sure where anyone has claimed to have seen a team of 1 DRK / 1 RPR / 6 ASTs?

My own experiences are DRK / RPR / DRG / DRG. Others have stated experiences with DRK/AST/AST/AST.