Disruptive Frontline Gameplay

[Aubrey_A]

As for FL being as balanced as possible, if you want to get rid of the overperforming pre-mades, the underperforming people would need to be cut out too. If you want the best balance, you'd need to cut off the bottom if you cut off the top.

Haha I hope people know they're gonna lose more then they win in a team match, for the most part. You're correct in that premades have no obligation to make sure the opponent teams have a good and fun match. Thankfully I don't think the petition for the good and fun aspect is to other players, rather to SE themselves.

I agree that there is a large skill disparity between veteran pvpers and green pvpers. In the name of balance, and everyone having at least a [/B]semblance[/B] if a good time, a couple things could happen:

- Separate queues for premades and solo queue players. I already gave my 2 cents on that in this thread, but without additional information I do not know if that kills the que.

- An ELO system to keep the skill ranges in line with one another. I see this eventually leading to people "smurfing" the ELO system, which brings us back to square one.

- Another potential solution I can't think of right now.

It kind of looks like people have forgotten what PvP is. Everyone wants to win, no one wants to lose. The pre-mades are just maximising their chances of winning, anyone can do the same, they're not being disruptive, they're not being mean-spirited, they're just trying to win. Nothing they're doing is illegal, their only obligation is to win for their team, there is no obligation to make sure the opponent teams have a good and fun match.

While I agree that each team should do what they need to do to win, I do take an issue when the actions of a few really start to impact the many in more ways then just a win or a loss. Anecdotally, I have heard/ read stories of premade teammates who find the game less engaging when a premade steamrolls without any true contest, less engaging for the enemies who have to play them. That's not to say I dislike coordination. Shot callers also have an outspoken effect on a match, especially if they are talented shot callers. The way they change a match and involve their team in a process feels more engaging then a coordinated premade attaining outspoken results compared to their teammates.

Regardless of anything else, the last thing I want is for the ques to be separated. I play solo quite a bit, but that doesn't mean I don't duo - quad que. This is an MMO afterall, and reducing everything down to a solo que would be a travesty.

[Aravell]

While I agree that each team should do what they need to do to win, I do take an issue when the actions of a few really start to impact the many in more ways then just a win or a loss. Anecdotally, I have heard/ read stories of premade teammates who find the game less engaging when a premade steamrolls without any true contest, less engaging for the enemies who have to play them. That's not to say I dislike coordination. Shot callers also have an outspoken effect on a match, especially if they are talented shot callers. The way they change a match and involve their team in a process feels more engaging then a coordinated premade attaining outspoken results compared to their teammates.

Regardless of anything else, the last thing I want is for the ques to be separated. I play solo quite a bit, but that doesn't mean I don't duo - quad que. This is an MMO afterall, and reducing everything down to a solo que would be a travesty.

The thing about the DRK combo meta is that the combo is only as effective as the weakest player on the opposing team. I'm sure you've had moments where you're out of the deathball, looking at your team getting slaughtered and thinking "Man, if only they got out before the burst", now imagine that 21 other people are outside of the deathball with you, that means the DRK combo only killed 2 people. Killing only 2-4 people every time they execute the combo would severely hamper their effectiveness, meaning they can no longer win exclusively through kills without touching objectives. The only real solution to the DRK combo meta is to equalize the skill level of the match.

I think the best solution would be if they implemented a hidden rating system for FL queues, you perform well, you go up higher, you perform badly, you go down. Sure, some people may throw matches on purpose to stomp the weaker players, but if the ratings are retroactive and they take the highest rating of everyone in the party to determine the tier of the match, that would be much less of an issue (The current DRK meta pre-mades would have to throw hundreds of matches to get low enough to stomp people if the ratings are retroactive). If everyone is about equal in skill level, that means the game will be balanced and fun, if you're good enough to not die to the DRK combos all the time, you can then trust that your team is good enough to see it coming too.

[Aubrey_A]

I think the best solution would be if they implemented a hidden rating system for FL queues, you perform well, you go up higher, you perform badly, you go down. Sure, some people may throw matches on purpose to stomp the weaker players, but if the ratings are retroactive and they take the highest rating of everyone in the party to determine the tier of the match, that would be much less of an issue (The current DRK meta pre-mades would have to throw hundreds of matches to get low enough to stomp people if the ratings are retroactive). If everyone is about equal in skill level, that means the game will be balanced and fun, if you're good enough to not die to the DRK combos all the time, you can then trust that your team is good enough to see it coming too.

I'm all in for a hidden rating system, especially based on the highest rating of the party. I worry this would either divide the queue up to the point where matches won't pop if a specific rating was not met. Inversely, not enough players are playing meaning everyone's lumped into the same que anyways. (I wouldn't have to worry if the players had some frontline statistics above what is shown in the Lodestone).

The thing about the DRK combo meta is that the combo is only as effective as the weakest player on the opposing team. I'm sure you've had moments where you're out of the deathball, looking at your team getting slaughtered and thinking "Man, if only they got out before the burst", now imagine that 21 other people are outside of the deathball with you, that means the DRK combo only killed 2 people. Killing only 2-4 people every time they execute the combo would severely hamper their effectiveness, meaning they can no longer win exclusively through kills without touching objectives. The only real solution to the DRK combo meta is to equalize the skill level of the match.

You are correct, the effectiveness of the DRK combo meta is the weakest links on the opposing teams. I die a little when I see 4+ players 100%-0% off the alliance list over a single tick. Obviously running into the meta is unavoidable sometimes, we don't choose to get pincered by our enemies afterall.

As a region we can't agree on what the best course of action would be, and we have been talking about it for months now lmao. This leads me to think educating teammates is the best way to go; and tempering expectations for those laissez faire teammates.




Sitting back and thinking about it, there honestly might not be anything to balance. It's not like FL hasn't had a meta in the past. Maybe it should be left as-is and the player base will eventually learn. Afterall, we figured out how to stop classes from getting height based kill, how to stop PLDs from pairing to cap points, to now stopping DRGs with a plethora of different CC.

[Scintilla]

I suggested shot-calling, because you seem to have come up against them often enough to have learned their tactics

You mentioned an FL guide for new players. I'm curious, what would you include in this guide which would be so profound that it would make premades suddenly survivable?

As others have said, shot-calling will do nothing.

DRK vokes, RPR removes Guard, followed by 2 BH5 DRG LBs. Simultaneously.

You've marked the DRK to try to get as much warning as possible of their coming.
Guard is going to be totally useless: regardless of whether you use it before or after the voke, the reduced movement speed won't let you escape in time before the RPR removes it and you'll still be caught in the LBs.
Stun the DRK or try to stand to attack? A nice try, but since their first attack which alerted you to their being there in the first place, they now have a high BH and an almost reckless alliance behind them - an alliance that knows chances of a solid counter attack are slim so they're safe to push further and harder than they would normally have done. Killing them will take longer and be much harder now they have BH. You may stun the DRK initially (but if you've used a melee to do it, good luck getting out of no-mans-land alive), but it will be removed far quicker than your team will be able to kill them. Some of your team may have already learnt their mistake from earlier and will have already begun to run. A few new players may not even be aware of the incoming danger.
Just run the moment you see them coming? Ignoring the fact that this would leave you having to completely give up objectives without any kind of counter-attack to defend them, if you've used sprint and you're early enough, you may escape. But remember: the only reason you escaped is because the DRK landed in a substantially large victim group that they remained there to voke. If all of you run, they'll just keep running after you, to the point where you're now nowhere near the objective.

I'm sure you've had moments where you're out of the deathball, looking at your team getting slaughtered and thinking "Man, if only they got out before the burst"

As said above, if everyone runs leaving only 3 people at the forefront of the enemy team, the DRK is going to run straight past them to catch up with a larger body of the team. Unless you all keep running for your lives until you're now far, far away from the objective, which you have no given them with no counter. If anyone got away, it's purely because a substantial number of their alliance didn't.

I think the best solution would be if they implemented a hidden rating system for FL queues

Ultimately, it will lead to the same veteran players being endlessly matched against the same premade teams, to the point where they just stop playing. So no, to believe that such a system will work shows naivety at best

[Aravell]

As said above, if everyone runs leaving only 3 people at the forefront of the enemy team, the DRK is going to run straight past them to catch up with a larger body of the team. Unless you all keep running for your lives until you're now far, far away from the objective, which you have no given them with no counter. If anyone got away, it's purely because a substantial number of their alliance didn't.

You do understand that if the DRK pre-made runs past the stragglers to engage the bigger part of the alliance, they've made the grave error of pinching themselves while parts of their team are hanging back at the objective, right? In that situation, the pre-made is at a severe disadvantage because they're down people while you have the entire alliance there and they're now pinched in the middle of your alliance. If an entire alliance somehow manages to lose the fight when the enemy is at such a disadvantage, then the average skill level really needs to go up.

In that situation, you'd turn around and clean house, then take their objective.

[Scintilla]

You do understand that if the DRK pre-made runs past the stragglers to engage the bigger part of the alliance, they've made the grave error of pinching themselves while parts of their team are hanging back at the objective, right? In that situation, the pre-made is at a severe disadvantage because they're down people while you have the entire alliance there and they're now pinched in the middle of your alliance. If an entire alliance somehow manages to lose the fight when the enemy is at such a disadvantage, then the average skill level really needs to go up.

In that situation, you'd turn around and clean house, then take their objective.

I feel you misunderstand. Presuming they are in a substantial group of your alliance the DRK will voke, LB, and kill, as is standard. A large proportion of your team will be dead and those of you who remain will not be able to fight the high BH enemy ahead of you.

If they run at you, the vast majority of your team will run. If enough have begun to run early enough that there are only 2-3 players still at the objective site, they won't voke. It's not worth it. Instead, they will either run past those 2-3 players and (assuming the rest of the team are still close enough for it to be safe) jump to the next nearest player who's within range of other alliance members. It's hardly 'pinched' when they've only got 2 or 3 enemy players behind them - and chances are these 2 or 3 players will be the newer players who didn't (and still haven't) realised the danger that's coming. In the unlikely event that everyone evacuated so quickly that it's no longer safe for the DRK to voke and the attack to be made, you've still given away the objective to them with no counter attack at all. I don't need to point out that that's not the way to win FLs...

[Aravell]

This also requires the premade to be focused on attacking the other random team whilst your own random team comes in for the attack.

You misunderstand my meaning. 1 single tank can disrupt or divert a portion of the backline, or if you're lucky, you can divert the entire backline. If the backline gets dived, there will be 2 common reactions, either they will scatter and flee or they will focus their attention on the person that just dived into them, in both cases, you have successfully diverted the attention of the pre-made's support group and made them that much less effective, if your team is at least aware of the fact that the 4 person pre-made is left to fend for themselves, it's very easy for them to turn it around on them, maybe take out some of their battle high.

I feel you misunderstand.

I don't know how it is on Aether, I rarely play there, but on OCE or JP, this is a common tactic. You back off and bait the enemy team inwards, then you turn around and clean up as more of the enemy team backs away back to the objective. It just greatly weakens the power of the opposing team, which makes them easier to clean up, provided your team is of comparable skill. In the end, any skill gap is a major factor.

As for your presented problem of DRK+RPR+DRGs, Guard would not be worth it, yes, but there is another way. If you Purify the bind and Sprint away, the Hysteria from the RPR LB will likely send you out from the Sky Shatter focus point, which results in you taking much less damage. There should be time as the RPR would want to wait for the Guards to come out so they can break people out of them. On another note, another possible solution to AST stacking is to silence or stun the ASTs in the group, staggering the Macrocosmos casts, which would allow people to Recuperate in between hits and not instantly blow up.

One thing I do agree with people on DRK is that the snapshot for the pull-in on Salted Earth is very wonky since you can be pulled back in when you're already out of range before the animation even starts.

I'm not sure where anyone has claimed to have seen a team of 1 DRK / 1 RPR / 6 ASTs?

My own experiences are DRK / RPR / DRG / DRG. Others have stated experiences with DRK/AST/AST/AST.

Certain people have made claims of 6+ ASTs in this very thread, you can probably find it very easily. I'm just going off what other people have said.

[Scintilla]

If the backline gets dived, there will be 2 common reactions, either they will scatter and flee or they will focus their attention on the person that just dived into them, in both cases, you have successfully diverted the attention of the pre-made's support group and made them that much less effective, if your team is at least aware of the fact that the 4 person pre-made is left to fend for themselves, it's very easy for them to turn it around on them, maybe take out some of their battle high.

So you meant to use a tank/melee to attack the premade's alliance, whilst the premade enter for the kill? Sadly, that too doesn't work from my own experience:

The DRK approaches, the ally tank/melee will jump into the premades alliance. Scattering is less likely - as I said, they're now aware they have a premade and become a little more confident than they would have been in a random team, where scatter may be a likely response. The most likely outcome is they will attack the incoming tank/melee. Depending on the tank/melee used, for example WAR, large groups of the enemy team may be temporarily stunned as part of the attack. In which case, yes, you will likely succeed in distracting the randoms of the premades alliance. However, it remains the case that whilst you are doing all of this, your team are dying right behind you to the premade. While you were jumping into their alliance, their DRK was jumping into yours. Their RPR teleporting in with them, and both DRGs already in the process of their LB cast and are within your team. Now you're in the middle of the enemy team with no aid.

As for your presented problem of DRK+RPR+DRGs, Guard would not be worth it, yes, but there is another way. If you Purify the bind and Sprint away, the Hysteria from the RPR LB will likely send you out from the Sky Shatter focus point, which results in you taking much less damage. There should be time as the RPR would want to wait for the Guards to come out so they can break people out of them.

Purify, Sprint doesn't work. No, the RPR won't need to wait for the Guards to appear - they jump in and use the LB. Anyone who used Guard will have it removed. Anyone who didn't use it wouldn't be able to apply it now anyway - they're sent into Hysteria. They can't use skills, they can't run with purpose, they can't do anything. So the RPR has no need to wait for people to use Guard. When I say these attacks are simultaneous, I'm not overexaggerating.

[Mawlzy]

You mentioned an FL guide for new players. I'm curious, what would you include in this guide which would be so profound that it would make premades suddenly survivable?

There is such a guide! Made by notorious shot-caller Olivia L. on Aether. Haven't read it for a while, but these are the salient features I recall.

How to win in FL:

1. Be a shot-caller. Various helpful macros are included.
2. Form a premade.
3. Various meta compositions are offered.
4. Tactics are suggested that inevitably involve fairly heavy casualties for those on your team not in the premade. Don't worry about that, they're not your friends anyway. The premade is so devastating they are simply collateral damage on the way to easy wins.

It's actually a really good guide, and I wish more FL players would read it because it corrects some common strategic misunderstandings. It's also deeply cynical IMO.

The problem is premades.

[IDontPetLalas]

You mentioned an FL guide for new players. I'm curious, what would you include in this guide which would be so profound that it would make premades suddenly survivable?

snip

I'm not sure this is coming from. My point regarding tutorials was related to a comment regarding new players.


Perhaps you have never met someone who has entered their first FL without knowing how what the purpose of each match is, and what the general objectives are, or how the job skills change in PvP, or that it is a good idea to keep their map open? If so- you're fortunate.

I'm not a game designer, however a tutorial could possibly use NPCs to simulate a short match, and allow someone to practise all of the above.

If you think that I will now say " and now you're ready to beat the best premade', you're sadly mistaken. If you think that I will say " you have an advantage over a premade on voice comm" you would also be mistaken or 'you are the equal of a veteran PvPer" you would also have the wrong impression.