Disruptive Frontline Gameplay

[Themarvin]

So instead of trying to cooperate with someone who is making an effort to coordinate things, you make an effort to sabotage the game because you're a special snowflake. Speak for yourself when you say stuff like it gets on everyone's nerves, you are everything that's wrong with western mentality.

Yes because the method using is griefing both your alliance and the alliances you are up against, cordination to a degree is nice, but not like this, the game should be about feeling to having put in an effort, not to spend time feeding a few peoples score in a figure of speech.

Fights should be interesting, somewhat close, just using the best exploit available is the typical western mentality, where as respect for the players you are with as well as the opponents is an entire different story.

This is an abomination tactics, no matter how you are looking on it, and if you can't see that for yourself, then there is a serious problem.

There is no sabotage in going the other direction, as long as you go towards the goals, the only actual sabotage is if you just AFK somewhere.

[Astralrisk]

I think most of the issues just stem from the LBs that do massive burst damage at once, except Macrocosmos. A comment in another thread reminded me that this exact issue that we have with DRK/DRG/AST was originally with SMN/WHM/SCH, which is funny to think about. This is a bias take, but trying to nerf the job in pvp overall because of FL would be lame, since I prefer them to balance the game for CC over FL. I think the smaller competitive mode should attempt to be more balanced than the 3-way big team battle mode that has randomness in objectives influencing which team wins. They do balance a little bit for FL with the damage reduction/nerfs that some jobs get specifically in FL, but that has made the game unfun and removes the individuality of FL. To repeat similar comments that I have made, they could just reduce the rate at which you gain LBs in FL specifically to help deal with all those jobs, while not affecting the balance of stuff in CC.

As for the abilities that aren't tied to LBs, since this is much harder thing for me to comment on. I feel like damage cap/fall off on Macrocosmos would be annoying. I can see it just be annoying when you use it to try and secure a kill, but it somehow manages to register on 5 other targets before it gets to the guy you actually want to kill. I would say to just nerf the damage, because AST is already strong with the rest of its kit, and having a 20yalm AoE that does 12k flat damage is very nutting in general. I don't know how effective it really is in CC, as I barely encounter them in ranked and only really noticed it killing me through walls one time. I don't have any ideas of what could be done with Salted Earth honestly. I don't have an actual issue with the ability being able to pull in people, but I do notice that having it on DRK makes it a lot easier to gets its LB off, so nerfing how fast you can get LB would probably help with that. The only real issue I have with it is how it interacts with this games horrible net code, which gets worse in FL with how many people there is. But I think that gets more into technical issues rather than balancing issues.

[Themarvin]

I think most of the issues just stem from the LBs that do massive burst damage at once, except Macrocosmos. A comment in another thread reminded me that this exact issue that we have with DRK/DRG/AST was originally with SMN/WHM/SCH, which is funny to think about. This is a bias take, but trying to nerf the job in pvp overall because of FL would be lame, since I prefer them to balance the game for CC over FL. I think the smaller competitive mode should attempt to be more balanced than the 3-way big team battle mode that has randomness in objectives influencing which team wins. They do balance a little bit for FL with the damage reduction/nerfs that some jobs get specifically in FL, but that has made the game unfun and removes the individuality of FL. To repeat similar comments that I have made, they could just reduce the rate at which you gain LBs in FL specifically to help deal with all those jobs, while not affecting the balance of stuff in CC.

As for the abilities that aren't tied to LBs, since this is much harder thing for me to comment on. I feel like damage cap/fall off on Macrocosmos would be annoying. I can see it just be annoying when you use it to try and secure a kill, but it somehow manages to register on 5 other targets before it gets to the guy you actually want to kill. I would say to just nerf the damage, because AST is already strong with the rest of its kit, and having a 20yalm AoE that does 12k flat damage is very nutting in general. I don't know how effective it really is in CC, as I barely encounter them in ranked and only really noticed it killing me through walls one time. I don't have any ideas of what could be done with Salted Earth honestly. I don't have an actual issue with the ability being able to pull in people, but I do notice that having it on DRK makes it a lot easier to gets its LB off, so nerfing how fast you can get LB would probably help with that. The only real issue I have with it is how it interacts with this games horrible net code, which gets worse in FL with how many people there is. But I think that gets more into technical issues rather than balancing issues.

Making the LB timers severe off from the mentioned classes and upping and lowering the damage is an option as well, meaning it could take twice as long or more for an AST to build up and a bard 1.5times faster than that... making it really hard to actually chain LBs in general with various jobs is a possible solution to that as well.

[Astralrisk]

Making the LB timers severe off from the mentioned classes and upping and lowering the damage is an option as well, meaning it could take twice as long or more for an AST to build up and a bard 1.5times faster than that... making it really hard to actually chain LBs in general with various jobs is a possible solution to that as well.

I don't just mean it for the mentioned jobs, but across the board. The idea would be having them double the CD on them but you can lower it by 20% for every BH level you get or something. I don't know if its the best idea, since if your playing a job with good aoe potential (AST, BLM, SMN, SCH) you could just farm assists and have high LB uptime. I just think the uptime on LBs and how strong they are should be touched on, since 90% of what I see when people talk about how a job is broken mostly just refers to how the jobs LB is too powerful, again specifically for FL. Wishful thinking, but I think if they do something about LBs they could just nerf the DR that everyone has and make FL more fun.

[DendrielConcade]

I would ROT AWAY if BH got buffed like that, it needs tossed out first and foremost. Like someone had suggested who apparently is a long time PvP'er just make it where LB doesn't charge passively but requires being in combat to get(At least in Frontlines, they never mentioned CC AFAIK). Forcing classes to engage in combat to get their LB would mean you could actually have more active and meaningful fighting and the numbers can make sense, could even have it where your LB gets charged by 10% or some shit for every kill you get with a non-LB skill so there isn't LB chaining but ways to reward people for actively taking risks and getting into combat.

[Cidel]

I don't take much stock in threads created by freshly-made accounts that jump right into hot-button issues that already oversaturate their respective Forums, since that is the M.O. of a couple of the notorious sock-puppeteers here, but I did want to respond to a few points made in the thread.

...
...Premade => job stacking + DRK(CC) is the biggest issue,

I agree with a lot of what you posted, but this part especially. Easily the biggest offender of FL frustration stems from an incredibly simplistic 2-ability maneuver from DRK leading to a concentrated target for a pile of enemies to be wiped out in a couple seconds. My opinions aside on the reactable-ness and management to the combo, the vast majority of the people queuing FL do not know how to deal with it as it requires very specific awareness and reaction; something most people trained on the PvE hamster wheel sorely lack. If the draw-in is capped to 5/nerfed/etc. or just general DRK adjustments are made, the problem goes away.

...Maybe make it so u can't enter more than 1-2 of the same job

Note: Battle High buff (BH) is also the reason why many jobs are broken,

I disagree with these though. Excluding people from participating based on what's their favorite job (or maybe their only job) will do more harm than good.

Battle High is what's supposed to incentivize people to actually PvP and stay alive. It's a killstreak bonus. That's why they made even Assists a thing. I can get Battle Fever off of even only a couple of kills and the rest being assists because staying alive and even just tagging targets that (eventually) die are counted. It's less about BH being broken and more about people crying sour grapes because they aren't skilled enough to progress and maintain it.

The fact that FL draws in so many clueless people who are just here for their quick XP, the general western mentality about doing minimal (mental) effort is a bigger issue imo.

Agreed.

Guard should probably also be reworked to activate when pressed and not years later after all enemy damage has registered...

It's unfortunately the same issue that makes so many people irritated with the Fallguys event. The netcode snapshots are the problem. Because of it you can still die even if it shows you hovering in your bubble for almost a full second because everything else killing you registered before you reacted. In short, there's nothing they can likely do.

I don't just mean it for the mentioned jobs, but across the board. The idea would be having them double the CD on them but you can lower it by 20% for every BH level you get or something.

No, it should be the opposite. For every level of Battle High you go up, the LB gauge should be slowing down. Unnoticeable at 20-40%, but takes twice as long if you are sitting at Battle Fever or even 80%. I say if you can get high levels of BH, you shouldn't get frequent LBs as a crutch to snowball your already increased damage and healing bonuses.


And yes, LB gauges shouldn't be charging for free in FL. If you aren't actively engaged in battle, you shouldn't be accumulating it. Part of the reason why DRK+DRG is a thing is because they can have their LBs up and ready at nearly every major objective interval just by traveling from one side of the map to the other.

[Jettinson]

It is even very boring to be on the team of those guys... seriously starting to just walking into the other direction or posting markers at different spots instead, because it is talentless grinding like that... also the spam macro text gets on everyones nerves as well and for me a degree I just report it as spam from time to time.

I like to put an effort and feel ike having done an effort to win these rounds, not just following a couple of clowns around seriously exploiting the game that does not only ruin it for the opponents, but also their own team mates.

You being an actual griefer because you are drowning yourself in annoyance and can't differentiate between game balance to actual communication is what annoys me the most in FL.
Macro text etc have been a thing way before this, did you used to report people that had a macro for Borderlands timer or those that put an A near the base as a way of gathering?
I already had a person like you harass people by unmarking constantly in my team and he got kicked.

I wouldn't be surprised if Rival Wings ever got added in Roulette and you will come here and magically saying how certain comps are exploiting the game, give a break

[Mistress_Irika]

My simple solution would be to keep the limit breaks from charging outside of battles. It's not a complete fix to OP's issue. However, it'll definitely force DRKs and other nuke classes to approach differently and actually fight without their LBs to immediately fall on right away.

As for those asking about the issue of battle high it does need a revisit, especially if we're going to continue to have the limit breaks charge outside of battle. Back then, if you died with battle high you had to start over building it. Additionally, teams got additional points for a shut down. People started complaining about having to start over and earning battle high through last hitting players, and now you have what you have snatching the bonus points away as a balance trade off. Now you rewarded way more for going on the offense in team fights instead of defending, and battle high is offering even more power to go on the offensive. I find myself getting hit with 44k LB from DRGs and now 50k LB from MCHs in CC every time an AST is present. Imagine adding BH values to this.

Yes because the method using is griefing both your alliance and the alliances you are up against, cordination to a degree is nice, but not like this, the game should be about feeling to having put in an effort, not to spend time feeding a few peoples score in a figure of speech.

Fights should be interesting, somewhat close, just using the best exploit available is the typical western mentality, where as respect for the players you are with as well as the opponents is an entire different story.

This is an abomination tactics, no matter how you are looking on it, and if you can't see that for yourself, then there is a serious problem.

There is no sabotage in going the other direction, as long as you go towards the goals, the only actual sabotage is if you just AFK somewhere.

I would rather have some sort of coordination in team fights than to be free blasting as a zerg, get nuked minutes later, and surrender at 7 minutes because the entire alliance lost at an S rank objective. It's bad enough that the "let them fight" religion is still going strong. Getting rid or premades is actually going to force people to rely on zerging and ultimately lead to more situations listed when dealing with high valued objectives. After all, I'm pretty certain that most players will still hard tunnel on an S rank while ignoring the other objectives spawning around them and sometimes the 3rd party entirely.

[Themarvin]

You being an actual griefer because you are drowning yourself in annoyance and can't differentiate between game balance to actual communication is what annoys me the most in FL.
Macro text etc have been a thing way before this, did you used to report people that had a macro for Borderlands timer or those that put an A near the base as a way of gathering?
I already had a person like you harass people by unmarking constantly in my team and he got kicked.

I wouldn't be surprised if Rival Wings ever got added in Roulette and you will come here and magically saying how certain comps are exploiting the game, give a break

There is no point in following the no skill train whenever it get to it... the only difficulty about that train in a figure of speech and in reality is beating that takes skill, and nope guard is really not the optimal option for it either.... in each mode there is objectives in Frontline, doing those and doing them successfully, thinking that this current thign is awesome is like the WHM exploit that was there quite some time ago that just wasted loads of people in bottleneck regions.

[Zairava]

There is no point in following the no skill train whenever it get to it... the only difficulty about that train in a figure of speech and in reality is beating that takes skill, and nope guard is really not the optimal option for it either.... in each mode there is objectives in Frontline, doing those and doing them successfully, thinking that this current thign is awesome is like the WHM exploit that was there quite some time ago that just wasted loads of people in bottleneck regions.

There is no "optimal" option for anything because everything has counter-play by one job or another. Strictly speaking, yes Guard is counter-play to DRK pulling you in to become mincemeat by a premade. You aren't countering that unless you have jobs that either remove it or kill you through Guard.

Just following the object of "go here, get node" will only result in your team getting slaughtered by the other two since you decided to not fight and therefore have no one with high enough battle high to tank or kill even non-coordinated comps.