Disruptive Frontline Gameplay

[Mawlzy]

and then they'll do what? I don't expect them to block premades, and I wouldn't want them to block premades, either. So fine- what about adjusting the algorithm so that specific premades can't enter? Well, the counter-argument to that is (1) unless it's coded in that nothing blocks anyone from changing once they're inside- so someone in that pre-made could just change roles anyway and (2) there's nothing to block someone at any time from changing to a more needed role in an
alliance , but people frequently don't (and thanks to those of you who do)- so why penalize premade compositions?

In addition. let's say that having a premade does have a statistical advantage. I expect that - yes, it does, it would be interesting to know just how big it is, it likely varies according to the premade, and isn't just based upon a specific composition by job, I would hope Square also takes specific players so that player experience could also be analyzed (win rates, number of FL matches, years, whatever).

What they'd do would depend on what their data reveals and whether they regard the current situation as flawed. I have a strong perception there's a problem, but I can't quantify it. Just based on playing experience, I think separate queues for solos and parties would eliminate most of the problems I see. And no doubt balance will continue to be tweaked.

[Chasingstars]

Queues for FL as notAstro/notDrk/notDrg/notBrd
Party is all DPS
There is two astros in the 2nd party and no drks
There is a drk in 3rd party and no astros
Joy....
Swap to astro
Nobody swaps to a tank job until halfway through the match, usually war or pld
It could be 2nd or 3rd place for where our team comes in
If its 1st place it will feel more unbelievable as if a miracle occurred
Other matches I might play reaper or bard
there is a nagging feeling in the back of my head, to just play dark knight
The same sort of feeling a tank main gets when it feels like you could do the job better

[Aubrey_A]

It's tough.

The dev team balances the jobs around CC, not around FL. So it isn't surprising that stacking jobs with similar thematics (large AoEs, smaller AoEs with larger damage, etc) causes an uproar. My issue is that the skill floor to execute a coordinated attack is abysmally low. A well-coordinated shot caller can see great success without the need for voice chat. I can't imagine how effective a succinct, voice-chatting group of 4 can be (not that I can't, I have seen both the giving and receiving end). I recognize that the level of balance change is more work than I think SE is willing to put in. So what is there to do?

While a separation between group ques and solo ques could be created, I look to the Feast group ques from the past. It was never populated from what I remember; so to that end, I'm not sure if separate queues are the answer. Maybe it is? I don't have the information to see if multiple queues could be justified.

Limiting AoEs to a certain amount of enemies hit? Reducing damage of an AoE attack after 3 or 4 enemies are hit? Although I did think this was a good idea before, it gets less attractive as time goes on. How will the game choose who gets hit by AoEs?

• Lowest HP enemies hit? To me, that sounds like a recipe for kill-steal after kill-steal. Not a mechanic that promotes fun in my mind.
• Closest enemies to the caster? That's a funny recommendation given the current meta is based around congregating enemies into 1 singular spot. To me it feels like we will have DRGs with their 5-10 yalm nukes, and other jobs that mimic what a DRG does with their AoEs. Not to mention some classes are based around that AoE hitting as many enemies as it can.

At the end of the day, FL should be fun. No one likes losing, but why play FL if it's not fun? Rewards keep people around, but I hope the majority of people play FL because they enjoy it. And even if this is anecdotal based on my experience, I understand how a few are ruining it for the many. Group play may not be intentionally ruining it, but I never thought I'd say "teamwork is so effective, that it's having unintended consequences for the whole beyond just helping win a match". I'm disappointed that some sort of solution hasn't been put into place, but not surprised given how the patch cycles pace out. Hopefully 7.0 will shake out some of the issues.

Please look forward to it, I suppose.


PS:If anyone else has a solution I haven't heard, I'm all ears

[Miki_L]

Separate queues for premade will just create a dead queue and will effectively remove premades from frontlines. Which has the same effect as just banning them in the first place. Which I'm pretty sure is what the people in this thread want. I highly doubt any of you are thinking from the premade's perspectives.

The AoE cap thing to me is not a huge issue when the main reason 5+ people get hit by AoEs is that they were poorly positioned in the first place. You have ranged players literally standing on the same pixels for pretty much no benefit when they can just maintain a loose spread and spread even further when a DRK rushes in. Then when they do get pulled in you'll maybe see like one/two of them even bothering to press guard in the first place. It's funny to see players complain about the DRK meta while also not engaging in any form of counterplay against it at all. Sure they could implement an AoE cap but I highly doubt it will actually solve the issue like some of you think.

What I think should be changed is:

1.) Salted Earth causes some debuff that makes you immune to it for like 30 seconds so multiple DRKs can't chain them together. Also if they could make it more responsive somehow.
2.) AST needs to be hit because it has no counterplay. I think Macrocosmos is honestly just an oversight that SE didn't think a single thought about.
3.) Potentially nerfing BH to make the mode less about farming newbs and more about strategic play (BH should still exist however)
4.) More changes to jobs to make them more enjoyable to play in a FL environment. I'm talking more range on some moves or other minor changes. For instance, with machinist, I think its heat stacks should last longer as it is unrealistic in FL to actually farm up to full stacks when you constantly have to avoid AoE combos.

I also think the mode needs to reward 2nd place more than 3rd place to encourage people to try more.

[Mawlzy]

Separate queues for premade will just create a dead queue and will effectively remove premades from frontlines. Which has the same effect as just banning them in the first place. Which I'm pretty sure is what the people in this thread want. I highly doubt any of you are thinking from the premade's perspectives.

Doozer provided an example of one premade's perspective, straight from the horse's mouth.

[IDontPetLalas]

Separate queues for premade will just create a dead queue and will effectively remove premades from frontlines. Which has the same effect as just banning them in the first place. Which I'm pretty sure is what the people in this thread want. I highly doubt any of you are thinking from the premade's perspectives.

The AoE cap thing to me is not a huge issue when the main reason 5+ people get hit by AoEs is that they were poorly positioned in the first place. You have ranged players literally standing on the same pixels for pretty much no benefit when they can just maintain a loose spread and spread even further when a DRK rushes in. Then when they do get pulled in you'll maybe see like one/two of them even bothering to press guard in the first place. It's funny to see players complain about the DRK meta while also not engaging in any form of counterplay against it at all. Sure they could implement an AoE cap but I highly doubt it will actually solve the issue like some of you think.

What I think should be changed is:

1.) Salted Earth causes some debuff that makes you immune to it for like 30 seconds so multiple DRKs can't chain them together. Also if they could make it more responsive somehow.
2.) AST needs to be hit because it has no counterplay. I think Macrocosmos is honestly just an oversight that SE didn't think a single thought about.
3.) Potentially nerfing BH to make the mode less about farming newbs and more about strategic play (BH should still exist however)
4.) More changes to jobs to make them more enjoyable to play in a FL environment. I'm talking more range on some moves or other minor changes. For instance, with machinist, I think its heat stacks should last longer as it is unrealistic in FL to actually farm up to full stacks when you constantly have to avoid AoE combos.

I also think the mode needs to reward 2nd place more than 3rd place to encourage people to try more.

Regarding number 2- silence- that's on 2 jobs.

[Jettinson]

It's tough.

The dev team balances the jobs around CC, not around FL. So it isn't surprising that stacking jobs with similar thematics (large AoEs, smaller AoEs with larger damage, etc) causes an uproar. My issue is that the skill floor to execute a coordinated attack is abysmally low. A well-coordinated shot caller can see great success without the need for voice chat. I can't imagine how effective a succinct, voice-chatting group of 4 can be (not that I can't, I have seen both the giving and receiving end). I recognize that the level of balance change is more work than I think SE is willing to put in. So what is there to do?

While a separation between group ques and solo ques could be created, I look to the Feast group ques from the past. It was never populated from what I remember; so to that end, I'm not sure if separate queues are the answer. Maybe it is? I don't have the information to see if multiple queues could be justified.

Limiting AoEs to a certain amount of enemies hit? Reducing damage of an AoE attack after 3 or 4 enemies are hit? Although I did think this was a good idea before, it gets less attractive as time goes on. How will the game choose who gets hit by AoEs?

• Lowest HP enemies hit? To me, that sounds like a recipe for kill-steal after kill-steal. Not a mechanic that promotes fun in my mind.
• Closest enemies to the caster? That's a funny recommendation given the current meta is based around congregating enemies into 1 singular spot. To me it feels like we will have DRGs with their 5-10 yalm nukes, and other jobs that mimic what a DRG does with their AoEs. Not to mention some classes are based around that AoE hitting as many enemies as it can.

At the end of the day, FL should be fun. No one likes losing, but why play FL if it's not fun? Rewards keep people around, but I hope the majority of people play FL because they enjoy it. And even if this is anecdotal based on my experience, I understand how a few are ruining it for the many. Group play may not be intentionally ruining it, but I never thought I'd say "teamwork is so effective, that it's having unintended consequences for the whole beyond just helping win a match". I'm disappointed that some sort of solution hasn't been put into place, but not surprised given how the patch cycles pace out. Hopefully 7.0 will shake out some of the issues.

Please look forward to it, I suppose.


PS:If anyone else has a solution I haven't heard, I'm all ears

No solution and LB still being generated outside of battle is wild for example.
Luckily for me, I play for fun, switch up classes and not die of boredom plus i'm glad that FL gives rewards especially tomes or else I wouldn't even stay subbed.

But after all these patches, I just gave up on hoping for a proper FL balance, the only saving grace was the whole Paladin's Cover being fixed and thank godness for that.

[Aravell]

It kind of looks like people have forgotten what PvP is. Everyone wants to win, no one wants to lose. The pre-mades are just maximising their chances of winning, anyone can do the same, they're not being disruptive, they're not being mean-spirited, they're just trying to win. Nothing they're doing is illegal, their only obligation is to win for their team, there is no obligation to make sure the opponent teams have a good and fun match.

As for FL being as balanced as possible, if you want to get rid of the overperforming pre-mades, the underperforming people would need to be cut out too. If you want the best balance, you'd need to cut off the bottom if you cut off the top.

[Aubrey_A]

As for FL being as balanced as possible, if you want to get rid of the overperforming pre-mades, the underperforming people would need to be cut out too. If you want the best balance, you'd need to cut off the bottom if you cut off the top.

Haha I hope people know they're gonna lose more then they win in a team match, for the most part. You're correct in that premades have no obligation to make sure the opponent teams have a good and fun match. Thankfully I don't think the petition for the good and fun aspect is to other players, rather to SE themselves.

I agree that there is a large skill disparity between veteran pvpers and green pvpers. In the name of balance, and everyone having at least a [/B]semblance[/B] if a good time, a couple things could happen:

- Separate queues for premades and solo queue players. I already gave my 2 cents on that in this thread, but without additional information I do not know if that kills the que.

- An ELO system to keep the skill ranges in line with one another. I see this eventually leading to people "smurfing" the ELO system, which brings us back to square one.

- Another potential solution I can't think of right now.

It kind of looks like people have forgotten what PvP is. Everyone wants to win, no one wants to lose. The pre-mades are just maximising their chances of winning, anyone can do the same, they're not being disruptive, they're not being mean-spirited, they're just trying to win. Nothing they're doing is illegal, their only obligation is to win for their team, there is no obligation to make sure the opponent teams have a good and fun match.

While I agree that each team should do what they need to do to win, I do take an issue when the actions of a few really start to impact the many in more ways then just a win or a loss. Anecdotally, I have heard/ read stories of premade teammates who find the game less engaging when a premade steamrolls without any true contest, less engaging for the enemies who have to play them. That's not to say I dislike coordination. Shot callers also have an outspoken effect on a match, especially if they are talented shot callers. The way they change a match and involve their team in a process feels more engaging then a coordinated premade attaining outspoken results compared to their teammates.

Regardless of anything else, the last thing I want is for the ques to be separated. I play solo quite a bit, but that doesn't mean I don't duo - quad que. This is an MMO afterall, and reducing everything down to a solo que would be a travesty.

[Aravell]

While I agree that each team should do what they need to do to win, I do take an issue when the actions of a few really start to impact the many in more ways then just a win or a loss. Anecdotally, I have heard/ read stories of premade teammates who find the game less engaging when a premade steamrolls without any true contest, less engaging for the enemies who have to play them. That's not to say I dislike coordination. Shot callers also have an outspoken effect on a match, especially if they are talented shot callers. The way they change a match and involve their team in a process feels more engaging then a coordinated premade attaining outspoken results compared to their teammates.

Regardless of anything else, the last thing I want is for the ques to be separated. I play solo quite a bit, but that doesn't mean I don't duo - quad que. This is an MMO afterall, and reducing everything down to a solo que would be a travesty.

The thing about the DRK combo meta is that the combo is only as effective as the weakest player on the opposing team. I'm sure you've had moments where you're out of the deathball, looking at your team getting slaughtered and thinking "Man, if only they got out before the burst", now imagine that 21 other people are outside of the deathball with you, that means the DRK combo only killed 2 people. Killing only 2-4 people every time they execute the combo would severely hamper their effectiveness, meaning they can no longer win exclusively through kills without touching objectives. The only real solution to the DRK combo meta is to equalize the skill level of the match.

I think the best solution would be if they implemented a hidden rating system for FL queues, you perform well, you go up higher, you perform badly, you go down. Sure, some people may throw matches on purpose to stomp the weaker players, but if the ratings are retroactive and they take the highest rating of everyone in the party to determine the tier of the match, that would be much less of an issue (The current DRK meta pre-mades would have to throw hundreds of matches to get low enough to stomp people if the ratings are retroactive). If everyone is about equal in skill level, that means the game will be balanced and fun, if you're good enough to not die to the DRK combos all the time, you can then trust that your team is good enough to see it coming too.