Disruptive Frontline Gameplay

[Scintilla]

A lot of you are poor sports. You start raging, you can't take it, you cry in the chat about how it's too hard and you can't do anything. You see people giving suggestions and instead of adding onto that, you take it personally... snip... work together

Personally, I would say 'poor sports' is using a network of practiced friends and a voice chat to remove all essence of competitive play from a game.
A decent premade will completely wipe out an opposing team within seconds and with very, very few opportunities to counter it. There are a few ways (MNK, RPR etc.) but they tend to require an experienced player to apply them as it can require some very specific timing, the ability to do the job and get in and out of the danger zone quickly, and a knowledge of the class/their uses.

And I think the 'work together' comment is the height of hypocrisy. Essentially, telling people to coordinate a totally random team to reach the same level of coordination of a premade with no prior notice and, if they fail, to 'get good' or that it's a lack of teamwork?
There is a reason many players play in premades: it gives far better and far easier coordination than playing with randoms and, hence, a better outcome. They won't get the same results playing with a team of randoms no matter how much they try, so they form a small, more coordinated team of their own within that group. So, if they can't coordinate a random team to the same level (hence why they created the premade in the first place) why force the unrealistic expectation on others?

Premades are never good. It's not skill, it's communication. The only thing they have is teamwork. That's why you lose, and they win. They communicate, you don't.

I would agree with this - to an extent. Yes, coordination and communication is the only thing giving premades the advantage. However, as said already, it is far easier to communicate amongst a small party of friends than it is to communicate within a huge team of randoms, each with varying different skill levels and experience.

Ultimately your point seems to be: make a premade of your own. If you're a casual player and/or your friends don't happen to like PvP? Bad luck

[Mawlzy]

The bottom line for me is whether the mode is fun. I understand the motivation of winning. I played poker for a living for over a decade. But even when it's your livelihood, you shear the sheep, you don't decapitate it. Because you want it to come back.

Some really fun games on Aether early on. Then the inevitable premade turns up with all members regularly in the 80+ assists. (Credit to the WAR, 2.5 million damage and 91 assists is spectacular.) It became dull in a hurry.

And I understand this week's disruption by the Q-synchers will be a Gunbreaker festival.

Really is unfortunate that PvP reliably attracts selfish pricks.

[OliviaLugria]

The main way to decrease the damage taken from an engage like that is having a Scholar who can just use their own LB+Shield+Deployment to create shields to also grant themselves and their allies an 8% damage buff. In addition Expedient+Dot+Deployment causes the engaging team to suffer 8% penalty while the defending team also gets an additional 10% damage mitigation. And that expedient provides a movespeed buff which can allow allies to escape if the engaging team screws up.

Also speaking of paladins, I seen plenty that try to be annoying by themselves. They usually lack the damage potential and rarely contribute anything meaningful to their team. Especially with Onsal. Its like a lost puppy that doesn't know any better.

Also doing the scholar Shield+Expedient+Dot on a Dragoon who is trying to engage unironically is the prime target to cause more harm to the premade team. As the Dragoon's extra damage taken debuff applies to the dot which can then be spread to their teammates. How strong of a dot? The dot with shield and expedient on a dragoon is close to a 83% increase in potency as a 0BH scholar when spread to the dragoon's teammates. In general the dot spread is very potent especially on Shatter where an enemy team can be given a 8% damage penalty and therefore it basically negates a BH1 if they have it, a negative BH1 if they don't have any.

You're really hyping up the scholar. An LB and a spread shield aren't saving you from a burst. They might save the tankier jobs, but the only real use case you have is expiedent helping your team spread out faster and then again... only your party. The best advice to avoid dying to an enemy burst is scatter and mitigate losses then crack back on them while they're vulnerable.

Secondly, Dragoon naturally has a 50% damage mitigation. Getting into life of the dragon reduces that to 25%, the same mitigation that all of the range have. You're better off deploying off a range unit then trying to time hitting the Dragoon during life, especially if the Dragoon hits you with roar.

[Chasingstars]

You're really hyping up the scholar. An LB and a spread shield aren't saving you from a burst.

Saved me countless times. And has saved my teammates where otherwise they would've died. Also I guess you don't play scholar. Because again, the dot they apply to enemies causes enemies to deal 8% less damage. Which also means with the Shatter map, if you apply to an enemy team at the middle big ice, they are 8% weaker at taking points from it. Which depending on how clumped up they are, can result in an entire enemy team getting an effective battle high decrease.

but the only real use case you have is expiedent helping your team spread out faster

Have you actually read the tooltip? It applies 10% damage reduction in addition to the speed buff. Your acting like that mitigation is unimportant.

and then again... only your party.

So stick to your party then. After all scholar is a healer and support. Or are you gonna tell me a bard shouldn't be with their party when trying to do buffs. Like no shit. Are ya gonna tell me next that astro's limit break only applies to their party? Or that bard's limit break only applies to their own party? Because if it is, man you must be new to pvp. After all, you coordinate with three parties in your group.

Secondly, Dragoon naturally has a 50% damage mitigation. Getting into life of the dragon reduces that to 25%, the same mitigation that all of the range have. You're better off deploying off a range unit then trying to time hitting the Dragoon during life, especially if the Dragoon hits you with roar.

The debuff that dragoons apply to themselves, the 25% effective increase damage, can cause the dot done by scholar to be supercharged as that new damage potency SPREADS to their teammates if done by a scholar's rapid deployment through the dot. Your really underestimating how much damage the dragoon hurts their own teammates with that dot. After all, most dragoons after initating will immediately leap back to the bulk of their team, which if done right, means the spreading of that dot can affect around potentially players.

EDIT: Hey want to know what a scholar's shield is? Well its a 6000 potency one. It also heals for 3000 on the target. This can spread to party members. Also expedient, the movespeed buff and 10% damage mitigation, also makes that shield 9000 potency as a battle high ZERO scholar.

Hey you know scholar's limit break? Summon Seraph? Well lets go over what it does. Well first of all it grants recitation which empower the dot or shield by 50% potency. Then the seraph applies seraph flight to nearby party members, which for the next 20 seconds, nullifies the next debuff that could be applied to that player, oh and as a bonus with seraphic flight, if a party member for 20 seconds after getting seraphic flight would fall under 50% HP? They get a free 8000 potency heal.

Oh and then the seraph automatically applies seraphic veil, in which any teammate that takes damage near it is healed for 4000 potency and gets a 4000 potency shield that lasts up to 10 seconds. And after 7 seconds you can activate the limit break again for seraphic consulaltation which applies to all party members nearby a 4000 potency heal and 4000 potency shield that lasts up to 10 seconds. These potencies by the way are for a scholar with no battle high.

Oh and hey you know whats a really fun thing to apply to dark knights? Mummification. For 10 seconds they take 25% reduced healing from healing actions.

[OliviaLugria]

Lol, please be in range to mummify me.

And yes, to a certain extent, mitigation is unimportant. You would need a godly amount to stop 24 people bearing down on you while you're charmed and feared to survive.

My point about it affecting only your party is that you're only affecting 1/3 of your team. Your "amazing" shield and mit combo doesn't save your other 16 members, and then it's 24 vs 8. Scholar dot of course can affect the entire enemy team, but doesn't make a large amount of differance. You also don't understand how the dot works. You're not spreading the life debuff around.

Simple math, but base scholar dot deals 3,000 potency. If you hit a drg not in life, they have 50% mitigation naturally, so your dot deals 1,500 to them. If you spread it to others, it will also deal 1,500 regardless of their mit. If you hit then with life up, they have 25% mit so your dot would deal 2,250 to them and anyone you spread to also takes 2,250.

My point being: brd,whm,blm,smn,mch,sage, and ast already have 25% mitigation, so it's easier to max out your dot potency by spreading from those targets.

Your reasoning is sound in CC where there is no damage mitigation, but it doesn't hold in FL.

It's funny you talk about seraph in that way when it doesn't negate Dark Knight vaccum, reaper fear, dancer charm or warrior primal scream.

Like... Scholar is the strongest job (when you have 24 of them) but most of what it does is padding when alone and suffers diminishing returns when you don't have enough stacked.

I really do find it hilarious that I could be accused of being new to pvp. I'll link my guide. Maybe pop over to aether for shatter tomorrow and you'll see what I mean :/

Guide:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...t?usp=drivesdk

[Chasingstars]

Lol, please be in range to mummify me.

Okay I do that all time. As Dark Knights are usually by themself and with LB its easy not to get rooted by them.

And yes, to a certain extent, mitigation is unimportant. You would need a godly amount to stop 24 people bearing down on you while you're charmed and feared to survive.

[situation where I am somehow having to deal with all 24 players at once.]

Cool story bro. Its alot easier to believe one lone player dots a bunch of people and runs off than the purposed deathball you imagine in your head.

My point about it affecting only your party is that you're only affecting 1/3 of your team.

And water is wet. News @ 11.

Your "amazing" shield and mit combo doesn't save your other 16

So does your Astro's LB and card also affect the other 16? Does your bard's arrow buffs and LB apply to the other 16's damage?

You also don't understand how the dot works. You're not spreading the life debuff around.

I am not spreading that debuff, I am spreading the increased damage that is now applied to the dot to your teammates.

Simple math but base scholar dot deals 3,000 potency. If you hit a drg not in life, they have 50% mitigation naturally, so your dot deals 1,500 to them. If you spread it to others, it will also deal 1,500 regardless of their mit.

lol wrong. That is not how that works. You take it based on your own mitigation.

Your reasoning is sound in CC where there is no damage mitigation, but it doesn't hold in FL.

My experience comes from frontlines. Not CC.

It's funny you talk about seraph in that way when it doesn't negate Dark Knight vaccum, reaper fear, dancer charm or warrior primal scream.

Its funny you ignore how it prevents DRK's root that you so desperately need to do your predictable combo.

I really do find it hilarious that I could be accused of being new to pvp.

Because you talk like someone who only knows a warped version of frontlines and doesn't understand how everything else actually works. That is why its funny to me.

[OliviaLugria]

[situation where I am somehow having to deal with all 24 players at once.]

Cool story bro. Its alot easier to believe one lone player dots a bunch of people and runs off than the purposed deathball you imagine in your head.

But this is basically my modus operandi. It's very easy to have 24 people coordinated and listening to me. If you're the type of scholar who just dots a team and runs off I highly doubt your doing anything productive.

So does your Astro's LB and card also affect the other 16? Does your bard's arrow buffs and LB apply to the other 16's damage?

Astro's LB also affects enemies, it's also 30% not 8%. Bard is a bad job, so I don't see your point... It might actually be decent if it did affect the other 16.

I am not spreading that debuff, I am spreading the increased damage that is now applied to the dot to your teammates.

I just assuming you can't do math... Dragoons have 50% mit in FL. When they enter life they take 25% more damage meaning 25% mit. This is the same as the range jobs I mentioned previously. Spreading off a life dragoon and a common range is the same amount of damage.

lol wrong. That is not how that works. You take it based on your own mitigation.

I'm getting someone to go test and have a video for you to view. You realize that your 2 statements are contradictory? If you take the dot with your own mitigation then it doesn't matter who you dot? Or are you saying you just dot dragoons during life because only they take more damage? I hardly see that being some huge play, and definitely isn't how you were describing it.

Its funny you ignore how it prevents DRK's root that you so desperately need to do your predictable combo.

It's funny you ignore reaper, dancer, and warrior, and of course all the other amounts of CC hitting your team. Darks' bind is nice, but they only need the people grouped, everyone else handles it from there.

Because you talk like someone who only knows a warped version of frontlines and doesn't understand how everything else actually works. That is why its funny to me.

You talk like someone who hasn't fought a premade. I'm going to command and will have a group 90% of the time. I'm saying your strategy against a premade doesn't work because I'm constantly in one, and it's never stopped me before. If anything, a scholar is just free points.

It's monks, warriors, white mages, reapers, dark knights, and dancers that excel at stopping pulls. If you want to spread misinformation that's going to make premades stronger than be my guest. You seem to have some knowledge of how they work, but I find it doubtful you've ever played in one or talked to dedicated groups about strategies and counters...

[Chasingstars]

But this is basically my modus operandi. It's very easy to have 24 people coordinated and listening to me. If you're the type of scholar who just dots a team and runs off I highly doubt your doing anything productive.

Translation of what you said: "LIES YOU CAN'T BE HELPING I REFUSE TO BELIEVE A SCHOLAR IS DOING ANYTHING MEANINGFUL BECAUSE IT BREAKS MY CAREFULLY MADE GOOGLE DOC AND WORLD VIEW"

Astro's LB also affects enemies, it's also 30% not 8%.

That is 30% dealt for 5 seconds, then 20%, then 10% then 0% for Astro. Your comparing a damage debuff which is a basic ability to an astro limit break. weird flex my dude.

Bard is a bad job, so I don't see your point

10% damage buff for simply firing a long range arrow to all nearby party members.

I just assuming you can't do math

You certianly can't do math because you think individual base mitigation applies to the dot spread. Like what planet do you come from?

It's funny you ignore reaper, dancer, and warrior, and of course all the other amounts of CC hitting your team. Darks' bind is nice

Because dark knight's root is importnat otherwise you wouldn't be using it as your crutch.

You talk like someone who hasn't fought a premade.

Fought plenty. Your just saltier than the dead seas because you are getting called out for being a liar and a hypocrit who also turns out to not know how to read tooltips and also not able to do basic math.



EDIT: Basic Gameplay Knowledge Teaching: So when you dot a dragoon, the dot now takes on the increased damage from the dragoon's debuff. That is what is being spread. A damage increased dot.

Likewise you don't want to dot a paladin when they take 0 damage from everything because it will nullify the damage of the dot if spread.

[OliviaLugria]

Translation of what you said: "LIES YOU CAN'T BE HELPING I REFUSE TO BELIEVE A SCHOLAR IS DOING ANYTHING MEANINGFUL BECAUSE IT BREAKS MY CAREFULLY MADE GOOGLE DOC AND WORLD VIEW"

My google doc and "world view?" don't know what that has to do with anything... but the guide consistently gets me an 70%+ winrate, and people who read it say similarly. I don't exactly see what I've been a hypocrite about...

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...e/frontline/4/

Here's the link to shatter on the website. If you scroll down to the bottom, you'll notice that dragoon takes 50% less damage. This is also true for Seal Rock and Onsal. If they enter life of the dragon they gain this effect taken from the offical pvp guide "Increases damage dealt and damage suffered by 25%" So, you take 50% and subtract 25% from life and get 25% mitigation. Now, looking back at the play guide, you'll see that all the jobs I mentioned in my previous post already have -25% damage taken. It is easier to spread off these jobs consistently since they are always taking -25% unlike dragoon which can greatly fluctuate thanks to life of the dragon and horrid roar.

If you can't understand from looking at the above, then you're just willfully ignorant. When you first suggested this interaction I was intrigued and investigated it. I asked people in the discords, got people to test in game, and ran some math. You seem content to spout nonsense despite people with actual evidence saying things to the contrary.

https://youtube.com/shorts/DWJM_6uD-OE?feature=share
Link to the video that goes in depth and shows how scholar dot works. If you look at the numbers spreading off a range job does more damage on the spread than if spreading off a dragoon in life of the dragon.

[Mawlzy]

Requesting a reality check to establish whether or not I'm turning into a curmudgeon.

My understanding of Q-synching for PvP events is that organizers use an off-DC language (typically J on NA) so that they both avoid interlopers and avoid annoying people who want to play a normal match. The only exception I know to this is the weekly single-job FL series in which the Aether Q-synchers queue in English. I avoided today's Gunbreaker installment for obvious reasons, but a member of my FC was running her dailies and got dumped in it. Not surprisingly with that much HP on the field, it ran the full twenty minutes and apparently was less than engaging.

Is this reasonable behavior? I saw the promo for this on a 35k-member PvP server, so the fact only half a 72-person field turns up for this tends to confirm it's a bloody silly idea in the first place. But is this really okay?