Disruptive Frontline Gameplay

[Rueby]

The main issue is that it's usually just sandbaggers who drag your teams down and give up immediately because they don't want to try, creating a very divisive gameplay experience.

It takes alot of effort from someone who just solo queues to stop or shut down a premade and most people who queue for frontlines lack the coordination and spacial awareness to respond or counter it. I always feel obliged to play a job to try and counter the premades and sometimes my team just isn't there, shadowing someone every game isn't fun to me. I used to play WHM alot before the PvP rework and I felt at least useful that I was able to heal everyone or try to, but now I am just useless.

It's tiring honestly, it took the fun out of frontlines for me and all the defeatist attitude I see in chat is just...meh. I wish I could give up too but I can't not give it my best shot otherwise to me I'm griefing, I'm not the best at it by any means and a part of me wishes DRK clicks with me but it never does nor do I enjoy it. I honestly wish I saw more people trying to fight back rather than rolling over and taking it.

I was in a frontline match in Light where people on my alliance gave up because there's a 'pro' even though I put the DRK on focus, I warned of ambush. People don't want to play. They don't want to fight. They already lost before they tried and honestly? I blame SE. This absurd amount of crowd control has no place in frontline and it's funny how queue sync'd matches without DRKs tend to be the most fun.

You tell people to fight, they give 'is this wow'and you look at their scores and they're dying 6-8 on ranged jobs. This is the majority of player that pops in frontline.

At this point I wish there was no FOMO with series levels. The more I feel I 'must' play this to get the fancy thing I want, the more I hate it and the more frustrating everything feels.

[AriannaStormwake]

it was 1 match of shatter where i saw no premade a rare case(it only happened once)
but most games are the same premade over and over we both know that

well the same premades and people who think lowscore third is"winning" when 1st place goes to the obvious lb/stun stacking premade and their buddies the 2nd place team who played better than my team(the third)
i hate lowscore third would be a shame for the free exp afks if 3rd had no rewards so like the guy in todays loss said"stop taking frontlines seriously"
yeah i want to win or get 2nd place if everyone else doesnt they can get their "afk exp" from other roulettes

[Mawlzy]

To give you all some idea of the pettiness and toxicity of the PvP "community," I have now been booted twice from FL mid-battle, despite having objectively above average numbers and being quiet in chat. I guess it was something I said here. To those responsible, you are breaking ToS. Also: fuck you.

[Mawlzy]

PSA

The next disruption/opportunity on Aether Frontlines provided by the Q-synchers will occur April 12th at 4pm Pacific. If you want to see what a field full of Ninjas looks like, this is an opportunity. If you regard this as an unwanted disruption of your FL play, I suggest you take an hour or two off.

If you have any observations or comments you'd like to share with these individuals, they will muster at the Adamantoise Wolves' Den prior to the "matches." Please be aware that anything other than fawning admiration may get you vote-kicked from future regular matches.

[Batbrat]

I don't think it's disruptive at all. Premades are extremely easy to beat. I say this because half the time I FL, it is in a premade.
Premades always use the exact same formulas. DRK, AST/WHM, DRG, DNC, maybe a PLD covering...right?

DRK = Jumps in, pulls
DNC/WHM = LB, whatever other useful skill to keep everyone stunned in place
AST/DRG = LB, whatever other useful skill for maximum damage of held group
PLD = protect

Usually in premades, I'm the WHM who LB's which locks everyone in place via my LB follow up of the DRK pulling everyone in, which further allows the designated hard hitters to wipe everyone as quickly as possible. It'll always go that exact same way. Ok. Now what can you do about it? There are many different ways to stop this.

Target the DRK. The best times to stop the DRK are BEFORE they do their pull. After they pull you, they'll probably use guard, or that skill that makes their hp so low no one cares anymore. You want to attack them before they grab you all, not after. Mark the DRK. Watch him carefully. He'll always kind of mess around in the back of groups just stalling for his time to jump in. The moment you see him coming up to the front, leap on him and kill him immediately. You know he's going to do the pull when he gets close enough. Just cancel him from doing it.
What can stop this? If he has a PLD, or a healer following him around breaking him free and protecting him, then it can be hard. The good news is that the majority of DRKs are not that well protected, because the majority of PLDs dont know what theyre doing and the majority of healers forget that they're ever supposed to heal-yes, in PvP too. So you usually have a good chance of just offing the DRK every time he tries to net you all.

Ok, but if we stop the DRK, What if another DRK just jumps in, or a DNC stuns us, and we all get trapped anyway?
If you're fighting a premade and it becomes clear that they know how to save flubs like that, next, you should target the ones who will do the most damage. Usually, go for the ASTs immediately. If you can shut the AST up, 6 of you wont drop like flies. ASTs almost never know what to do when they're targeted. Like DRKs, they're usually only really there to do their one trick pony skill. If you focus an AST, they flop over dead in like 3 seconds. This will be your most effective kill, along with the DNC and the DRG. Fastest kills though are AST and DNC. If your team gets trapped, but you weren't in range to become trapped, just stun one of those two and most of your team members should survive just fine.* -Also, please note! If you know the DRK is coming, RUN out of his range. Do not allow yourself to get clumped in!

[Mistress_Irika]

snip

Unfortunately, I see this being overlooked. Many has already come to the conclusion that the best way to deal with the premades is to remove them from frontlines entirely.

Personally, it's not going to solve my problem with everyone being hyper focused on objectives. However, this is apparently how you're supposed to be playing. Forget learning how to fight. So with the current kits I just stay quiet and pray that I don't fall asleep during the 5 minutes that's being used for only farming each game.

[Mawlzy]

snip

So provided the premade is remarkably inept, they're not a problem when you're on an opposing team. Got it.

Any solution to be being bored to death when the premade is on your team?

[Scintilla]

Well, let's take it piece by piece:

DRK, AST/WHM, DRG, DNC, maybe a PLD covering...right?

Can't say that matches the premades we have here in EU perfectly, but it's close enough.

DRK=Jumps in, pulls
DNC/WHM= LB, keep everyone stunned in place
AST/DRG = LB, maximum damage of held group
PLD = protect

I would somewhat question at least one of these class 'roles' and don't think that any premade using such a setup is playing remotely optimally.

The DNC role is the same as RPRs - to remove Guard. DNC could be argued to be more effective than RPR in that it doesn't scatter your enemies (a non-issue for a coordinated premade), but comes at the cost of having a huge animation time, zero defence, and a longer CD. Hence why RPR tends to be the main choice.
AST can do high damage and help to keep the voked group in place. While not a stun, it's AoE can apply Heavy to drastically slow escape. All while being able to heal the DRK and buff the team. Alternatively, WAR is a common dual-purpose class: able to remove Guard and stun - including providing an early tank distraction and stunning enemies before the DRK vokes, giving them clear and undisturbed entry in to voke a larger group.

I can't say that I have seen a WHM or PLD used as part of a decent premade, but perhaps that is just server differences.

Target the DRK.

Fine on paper. Good luck getting it to work in practice.

1. In the event they do have some sort of pre-voke stun, it means an extra person to watch out for. It means needing to split earlier to avoid all being caught up. It means delayed escape time in the event that you are caught etc.

2. Mark the DRK, shout warnings all you like. But many FL players are casual players and won't be quite as aware of their full surroundings as they need to be. For every one that escapes, 5 more die. What use is that one escapee when their entire team is dead and they have a BH5 team charging ahead to fight over the few survivors that remain?

3. Assuming the AST is part of the premade, they will be there to help heal some damage taken before the stun/voke. Only a matter of seconds are needed. If they're not healing, it's a poor premade.

go for the ASTs immediately

If xxx happens, do xxx. Right - now get that message across to a full alliance in the space of 3 seconds. Yes, an AST or DNC would be a quick kill if many were to focus on them, but chances are your alliance will all be reacting differently:
- Some will have already begun running for their lives
- Some will be attacking the DRK
- If there is a WAR etc. for pre-stun, some may be caught by/attacking them
- Some will be totally oblivious to the whole situation and will be attacking an irrelevant BRD before meeting instant death.

And I would debate your choice of second-target. If they were using DNC to remove Guard then yes, that is the focus. Without them, we can Guard and will likely leave with more survivors. But AST? A quick kill compared to the others, true, but killing them isn't remotely going to save your team from the incoming wipe. If they use RPR as most do... now there's problems. Melee, shields, a quick teleport in and out of danger. Can easily keep out of range until the very final second before jumping in to LB.

Really you're just saying: to beat a premade, you need your own coordinated premade.
And don't be clumped in? Bottlenecks

[Chasingstars]

DRK = Jumps in, pulls
DNC/WHM = LB, whatever other useful skill to keep everyone stunned in place
AST/DRG = LB, whatever other useful skill for maximum damage of held group
PLD = protect

Wrong. You want dancers, reapers, and warriors. Because breaking their guard is more important than a white mage stun that lasts less than 2 seconds. As guard breaks catch the ones who would be more prepared and do it early.

The main way to decrease the damage taken from an engage like that is having a Scholar who can just use their own LB+Shield+Deployment to create shields to also grant themselves and their allies an 8% damage buff. In addition Expedient+Dot+Deployment causes the engaging team to suffer 8% penalty while the defending team also gets an additional 10% damage mitigation. And that expedient provides a movespeed buff which can allow allies to escape if the engaging team screws up.

Also speaking of paladins, I seen plenty that try to be annoying by themselves. They usually lack the damage potential and rarely contribute anything meaningful to their team. Especially with Onsal. Its like a lost puppy that doesn't know any better.

Also doing the scholar Shield+Expedient+Dot on a Dragoon who is trying to engage unironically is the prime target to cause more harm to the premade team. As the Dragoon's extra damage taken debuff applies to the dot which can then be spread to their teammates. How strong of a dot? The dot with shield and expedient on a dragoon is close to a 83% increase in potency as a 0BH scholar when spread to the dragoon's teammates. In general the dot spread is very potent especially on Shatter where an enemy team can be given a 8% damage penalty and therefore it basically negates a BH1 if they have it, a negative BH1 if they don't have any.

[Batbrat]

What about the WHM/PLD?
They're slower to kill. PLDs are good at wasting peoples time, as are WHMs. They can survive for quite a while even when being jumped, so in my opinion, its more effective to go after basically any of the others, unless of course, you spot one of them getting ready to do their LB or whatever skill to protect the DRK. If you can catch them before they pop that off, then go for it.

Why does all of this still not work sometimes?
A lot of you are poor sports. You start raging, you can't take it, you cry in the chat about how it's too hard and you can't do anything. You see people giving suggestions and instead of adding onto that, you take it personally. Get upset, start hallucinating that the person is picking on you. None of you are that important. Teams talking amongst teach other is very important, its called strategizing. Work together, figure it out. Don't verbally attack/bash each other. Don't throw a tantrum. Work together.

I've seen people say updates before a skill goes off, but instead of coming together and following up with each other all using your most powerful skills at once, someone starts crying that the updates are annoying, or how THEY used their skill (alone with no warning to anyone else) but no one else did. Of course we didnt, we can't see that you did. That's why you type it. You communicate. Let your team know, so they can work with you. Stop being so sensitive. Communicate. Don't get so frustrated that you start reading everyone's words in anger. Lot of time, people are trying to be helpful to one another. Don't assume that everyone is angrily shouting things at you.

Premades are never good. It's not skill, it's communication. The only thing they have is teamwork. That's why you lose, and they win. They communicate, you don't. If you remove a meta? They'll come up with a new one next week. Because all it takes is working together and synchronizing attacks. This isnt Secure anymore, where you get cheated because youre knocked off the cliff. This is just 4 people who know how to type "im gonna do x"/"ok im going to do y" and that's why youre sprawled out on the floor, red in the face, with the lowest score out of like 72 people as a dps.

There is nothing wrong with the current meta. but there is everything wrong with manys mindsets and inability to control their tempers long enough to stop the most obvious attack patterns known to man. Never have I ever played an MMO's PvP that was as transparent as XIV's. You can hear attacks before they go off. You can hear a SAM getting ready to kill you. You can see when a DRK is beginning the pull animation. To not be able to fend off a premade, is to not be able to look at your screen for more than 2 minutes at a time. Either queue in with the actual desire to work together and play, or queue with your bedtime gummies already taken and go to bed mid-match because you might as well at that point.